Welcome to the only known full, unabridged transcript of the audio recording made by Abraham Christie’s brother-in-law, Jean-Clement Yaohirou, on the night of 4 September 2014. (Listen to the original audio by clicking the above link.)
At that time, Abraham, the children, and later Ella had just returned from Morocco, where they had spent the month of August “brainstorming” details of the hoax and physically and emotionally torturing the children into repeating it to the adults’ satisfaction.
This transcript was originally published here in seven segments, with our commentary. You can find those posts at these links:
- Part 1 sets the stage: Abraham Christie subjects the children to a series of rapid-fire questions, correcting them when their answers do not please him; and he appears to believe that Jean-Clement, a Special Constable with the London Metropolitan Police, will be able to go and arrest those he accuses.
- Part 2 further illustrates Abraham’s bullying of both the children and Jean-Clement, who he threatens will be the “very uncomfortable” subject of a book if he fails to co-operate with them.
- In Part 3, Ella finally puts in an appearance, having gone home to shower and put on makeup while Abe and the children went to Jean-Clement’s house. Abe and Ella show J-C the drawings of the various imaginary tattoos and birthmarks, Abe takes delight in J-C’s discomfiture, and the “secret room”, accessible via a very familiar-sounding wardrobe, is described.
- In Part 4, Abraham reveals something truly extraordinary: he states very firmly that the tattoos are worthless as evidence, and are unimportant. And we know exactly why he said that.
- Part 5 offers a very telling portrait of Ella, who explains her history with social services and the family court, painting a picture of herself as a neglectful parent, spiteful towards the father of the two children.
- In Part 6, Abraham reveals that he really does expect Jean-Clement to conduct the investigation solo, and both Abe and Ella insist that J-C should investigate RD first. Meanwhile, J-C advises Abe to remove the videos of the children from his phone—which sounds to us very much like advising him to tamper with police evidence.
- In Part 7, Abraham leads the children in chanting “Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill the baby! Kill the baby! Kill the baby!” and tells Jean-Clement that his daughter also likes to “touch and kill”.
The full transcript
Abraham and the children arrived at Jean-Clement’s house at about 10 p.m.; Ella arrived about an hour later. Here is what transpired. A few parts are inaudible, either because of background noise, or because people were talking over one another. We have left some timestamps in the transcript for reference.
Abraham: Jean-Clement?
J-C: Mm-hmm?
Abraham: We can’t stay long, yeah?
J-C: Okay…
Abraham: You got to work, and I need some rest.
J-C: ‘Kay…
Abraham: It’s my birthday, and I haven’t had any rest. Now I mean, Jean-Clement…
J-C: [inaud.]
Killing babies
Abraham: Don’t tell Jean-Clement any lies.
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: Do you hear me?
Child P: Yes, Papa.
Abraham: Otherwise we’ll have to lock you up in the jail. Have you got room in the jail to lock her up tonight?
J-C: [laughs]
Abraham: Have you got room, yes or no?
J-C: She is too pretty for that.
Abraham: Heh heh! So, uh, tell him what you said. You deserve to be locked up for killing the babies. Listen, did you kill any babies?
Child P: No.
Abraham: Who killed the babies?
Child P: Papa. Papa hold our hand.
J-C: Hold your hands?
Abraham: Yeah.
Child P: We put on our hand, but—
J-C: Yeah.
Abraham: He makes you put your…no, he puts your hand on.
Child P: And then he puts his hand on ours, cuts off the baby’s head off. He’s strong. He pushes down and he teaches us how to cut the baby…
Abraham: He teaches you—
Child P: He says he wants us to do it when we’re older.
Abraham: What you think? What, you don’t understand what I’m telling you? They are killing babies, wholesale…wholesale. They are killing them, they are drinking the blood, and they are eating the meat. And the skulls of the babies, they are tying them, four skulls here, hello! Four skulls here, one here, two here, one here, two here, elbows here. And they are making—what about the shoes? This baby-skin—
Child P: Yeah, skin, baby-skin shoes.
Abraham quizzes Child P
Abraham: Who makes the baby-skin shoes?
Child P: Felix. There’s one man they call Felix, and Daniel.
Abraham: What is his normal job? Is he a shoemaker?
Child P: Yes. He’s a shoemaker. He works in—
Abraham: What about the doctor? What about the doctor, is he, is he one as well?
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: What about your headmistress, is she one as well?
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: How many skulls does she wear when she dances?
Child P: Twenty.
Abraham: So, uh—
J-C: Twenty baby— ?
Abraham: So then how many, how many adults are involved?
Child P: Oh, there’s maybe like oh, four hundred, four hundred plus thir-…four hundred fifty, four hundred thirty, something like that.
Abraham: Over four hundred adults are involved. And how many skulls do they wear each?
Child P: …[silence]
Abraham: [impatiently] How many skulls do they wear?
Child P: Uh…twenty.
Abraham: So there’s over four hundred adults and they’re all wearing twenty skulls each. Can you do the math? Over eight hundred. [8,000 more like.] Dog, lie down. Lie down. Lie down and go to sleep (snapping noise). Lie down.
J-C: Look, let me let her…
Abraham: No, because she will jump around everywhere, Jean-Clement.
J-C: Ah.
Abraham: Leave her, let her sit there.
J-C: Also for the cats, for the cats so they can come in.
Abraham: Yeah, no, leave her, leave her…
[shuffling sounds]
Child Q: Crystal loves chasing cats.
[background noise]
J-C: [close to mic] Church…(inaud.) church…
Abraham: Jean-Clement?
J-C: Mmm?
Abraham: Are you plugging in?
J-C: Yeah, getting the phone ready for tomorrow.
[background noise]
J-C: What’s your dog’s name?
Child Q: Crystal!
J-C: Crystal!
Child P: She’s a puppy right now, but she’s nearly, nearly like a…she’s still a puppy right now, but she’s half Staffy and half whippet.
J-C: I don’t know much about dogs. … Do you want to use them now?
Child P: Sorry?
J-C: Do you want to use them?
Abraham: (from a distance) Could we have some cups, please?
Child P: Ah yes…
Abraham: Jean-Clement, could we have some cups please, to make some tea, please?
J-C: I put it on already…
Abraham: I need three or four cups, yeah? … I’ve got a teapot full of tea…
J-C: [inaud.]
Abraham: Jean-Clement?
J-C: Yeah?
‘Did you touch him?’
Abraham: The mother is a good person, yeah? …[to Child P] Did you touch him?
Child P: No, he was in the other room, I was just turning it on.
Abraham: That’s all, just say ‘no’. … do you want a sandwich? Do you want a sandwich, [Child P]? [to J-C]: Have you got an avocado? Never mind, never mind. How was F_____? Enjoyed his holiday?
J-C: Yeah, we’ve nothing of his age in the village.
Abraham: I know, I know. I know what it’s like when you’ve got all your [dinner?] It’s good for him to experience that. You know what I mean, Jean-Clement?
J-C: He had time to sit down…
Abraham: Absolutely, that was the most important, Jean-Clement, absolutely.
J-C: He got the kids, the two kind of, erm, two children for his age.
Who has tattoos?
Child Q: Me, and my sister, and my mother don’t have tattoos.
J-C: You don’t have tattoos?
Child Q: Yeah. If my mum was doing it, if she was touching me, I would have had a tattoo right now.
Abraham: What about your brother, Xxxxx? Same thing about your brother.
Child Q: Yeah, he doesn’t have it yet, no.
Abraham. But tell him what he does.
Child Q: He does…he, he touches us? And he does, um, sex to us. [N.B.: In 2017 Ella admitted that she had “been mistaken” about this. Yet Q is repeating it as though it were true.]
‘They picked her’
Abraham: Tell him about…listen to this.
Child Q: Yes?
Abraham: Her first husband, they picked her. They picked her. They selected her. The mother. They selected her. The first husband, he’s one…
Child Q: …[starts to speak]
Abraham: Shush. He’s one, he’s an investment banker. He done it…he had a baby with her, and the boy, he done sex to the boy. He’s seventeen… [Ella has admitted that this was not true.]
J-C: That’s the seventeen-year-old.
Abraham: The first husband. She left him. The first husband told the second guy, ‘go and get her, she’s easy’. He went and got her, he had two babies with her. He does it to the two babies. All three children are involved in this cult. From two different men. Who are cult members. She came to me. Cause she knew I didn’t—I wasn’t a weird guy. She knew there was something, I was clean. And she knew in her heart that I could help her, she didn’t know how. I didn’t know.[None of the above can be true, as Ella has admitted that she had “been mistaken” about her ex-husband, her eldest son, and her first husband’s wife being ‘in the cult’]
J-C: Mmmhmm.
Abraham: Her first husband, he sent the second man to her. Some of her friends that come to the house?
J-C: Mmmhmm?
Abraham: They come to her house. Then they go to school and sex her children behind her back.
‘You arrest them all’
J-C: It’s all—this is happening in the school?
Abraham: In the school, in the church, McDonald’s, in the local swimming pool…
Child Q: In the house…
Abraham: …and in people’s houses.
J-C: You mean club, like?
Abraham: Yeah. And in their houses, in their houses. Happens in school during school hours. You go there on a Wednesday and you arrest them all. And you will take the children in the school because they do it to every child in the school and I guarantee you, of the children, 100 of them will talk.
‘The parents are all involved’
J-C: How come the parents don’t know?
Abraham: Because the parents are all involved.
Child Q: All of them.
Abraham: That’s why it’s kept a secret.
J-C: This a private school?
Children: No, no.
Abraham: Hampstead school. Posh school.
Child Q: It’s boys mixed with boys…boys mixed with girls.
Abraham: It’s all social, they’re all social climbers.
J-C: Ah, so they select the people who come to the school.
Abraham: That’s right.
‘A hundred people do sex to them’
Child P: And they sell us for £50 each.
Abraham: At the party.
Child P: So Papa sells me and Child Q.
Abraham: And a hundred people do sex to them, a hundred people do sex to them…
Child P: Me and…
Abraham: NO! Hundred people do sex to them, each, for two hundred sex, two hundred times sex, two hundred times fifty is how much?
Child P: Two hundred plus thirty…
Abraham: Ten grand. I’ve done the maths already, ten thousand pounds. That’s just…he also sells the willies, what else does he sell?
J-C: [loudly] Oh! Shut up!
‘He makes snuff movies’
Abraham: He makes movies. He makes snuff movies of the babies. And he sells them in the Ukraine, in Russia, in Brazil, in Portugal, in Brussels, in England, he sells them all…over…the world. Tell Papa about the movies.
Child P: Mmm?
Child Q: The movies, there’s a mum, I got a friend, called _____ in my class, his mum is called _____, she’s Ukrainian, and she translates the movies and she translates it and she, umm…
Child P: And it’s movies of them doing sex me and…to the children in school. So it’s like them doing sex to me and Child Q, and…
Child Q: Don’t you say that word…
Child P: So it’s like them doing sex to each other, and then they sometimes, they make movies, of like them dancing.
J-C: How old are you two?
Child Q: I’m eight and she’s nine. But I’m taller than her. But she’s in year 4, but she’s turning to year 5. But I was in year 3, but…
Child P: I’m already supposed to be in year 5 right now.
J-C: Yeah.
Child Q: I’m supposed to be in year 4.
J-C: I see you going to homestead school? No, not any more?
[sounds of chopping from other room]
Abraham: Well, listen…
J-C: So you going to homestead school?
Abraham: Everybody listen to me, please, I’m coming in there.
J-C: All right.
‘I don’t trust any solicitor’
Abraham: Now. Help me if I get anything wrong. Your father’s got a court order, he must see the children every two weeks. We took the children on holiday. The solicitor that he’s got is a member of the paedophile ring. The solicitor that the mother has got is a member of the paedophile ring. The solicitor that is representing the mother…Mum’s solicitor is one of them isn’t he? So he’s always advising the father. Her own solicitor…
J-C: Is part of the…
Abraham: Yeah. Listen to this. The father gets to see them every two weeks. We haven’t let the father see them for five weeks because we took them away on holiday. We should not have taken them out of Europe because she has…
J-C: The order.
Abraham: We shouldn’t have taken them out because we’ve broken the order. But we had to take them out of Europe to make sure they were safe from the clutches of the ring. Now we have brought them back today to see you.
J-C: Oh, right.
Abraham: I phoned up a solicitor—I don’t trust any solicitor, not in Hackney or anywhere, except my solicitors, but they’re criminal, they don’t deal with this kind of thing. They’d defend me, but they can’t…they’re not prosecutors. He is supposed to see them every two weeks. He hasn’t seen them for five weeks. The school is involved, you know, the school is asking her [smacks hands together loudly] where are the children, where are the children, listen. No, cos they’ve only been out of school for one day, two days.
J-C: Yeah, like, em…
Abraham: Yeah! Yeah! Yesterday.
J-C: Oh, they went back yesterday.
Abraham: Yes…Jean-Clement, something is bugging me out there, it’s making noise, what is it?
J-C: That’s the fire alarm.
Abraham: Well. Anyway. He’s supposed to see them. He organized a party for the 31st of August. We didn’t let him get the children because we know what he wants to do to them. When he finds out that they have told me, he will kill them.
J-C: So he doesn’t know yet?
Abraham: Course he doesn’t know.
J-C: So he doesn’t know they’re here?
Abraham: He doesn’t know they’re here yet, but he will find out, he will find out because we have to give their passports back to the solicitor. Who is a member of the paedophile group.
J-C: Why can’t they change school?
Abraham: [angrily] They can’t change school!
J-C: They can’t…
Abraham: We’re gonna do that, but…NO!
J-C: Oh, you have to go all through the whole process…
Abraham: He’s going to get them, he’s going to get them! If we don’t protect them, he’s going to get them!
J-C: But he’s got a court order to see them every two weeks anyway…
Abraham: But we’re not going to let him see them! We can’t let him see them, he will kill them!
Child P: They’ll sacrifice us, the same like the baby. So they’ll eat us themselves…
Abraham: Now you understand my dilemma.
Sensible suggestions
J-C: Why couldn’t you keep them in Morocco then, and have someone come over to see them instead?
Abraham: Because we wanted you to see them. We’re going to send them back to Morocco tomorrow.
J-C: I could have come there and speak to them.
Abraham: Well we brought them here, we’ll send them tomorrow.
J-C: Okay, all right.
Abraham: Now you understand.
J-C: Yeah.
Phone wars
Abraham: We brought them here specifically to see…I kept ringing you, but the mother had put my number on no caller i.d.
J-C: No, not that, Aby…when I ring you, it’s because of being engaged.
Abraham: Because people are talking to me.
J-C: I spoke to Donna, and she said something happen to your phone!
Abraham: Nothing happened to my phone. The father, they took my phone and gave it to the father.
J-C: Okay.
Abraham: This is a new phone. I’ve been talking to people all day because it’s my birthday.
J-C: That’s why. No, I call you today, I called you this afternoon.
Abraham: You only…once today, and once yesterday! Come on, Jean-Clement, you…
J-C: No, no, I call you, remember, you called…
Abraham: I have no missed calls from you.
J-C: You called several time…
Abraham: No, no..
J-C: You did! You called several times when we’re driving, and I called back, the phone is engaged, and I say why is the phone engaged, he just called!
Abraham: Because I’ve been talking to somebody else while I’m trying to call you.
J-C: Ah…
Abraham: I’m talking to someone else while I’m trying to call you, I’m talking to a solicitor, I’m talking to somebody else, I’m getting advice on telling my brother John what the situation [slaps hands loudly] I had to let somebody know what my situation was, just in case.
J-C: Yeah, yeah.
Abraham: I was sending emails, I was…Jean-Clement, I’m 57, I’m not born yesterday.
‘He’s taking the mother to court now again’
J-C: I know…I know you’re nervous.
Abraham: Right. That’s why I came to you. For the father, he’s waiting, and he has a court…
J-C: For them to go back to school…
Abraham: No! Not only that. He has a visiting, he’s taking the mother to court now again.
J-C: Okay.
Abraham: Cos he wants to see his children. Now why does he want to see his children? To do sex to them, to make parties, to sell them to other people and make movies. We can’t allow it to happen any more, Jean-Clement. Now you understand?
J-C: Oh, okay.
Abraham: (loudly) We cannot allow it to happen any more, he must be arrested! Tell him about Papa’s secret room and what he keeps there!
J-C: No, uh…
Abraham: (excitedly) Secret rooms!
More sensible suggestions
J-C: Can they stay here, then?
Abraham: Where?
J-C: Here.
Abraham: What for?…They can, but they will touch each other. And you can’t feed them. You can’t feed them the diet they need. They are vegan, raw vegan. The mother won’t let them eat anything because…
J-C: Unless they’re with their mother, then.
Abraham: Where?
J-C: Here.
Abraham: They’re with their mother here? Yeah…(loudly) They could stay with us! They could stay with us where they are! They’re fine!
J-C: Okay, no problem.
Keys to the house
Abraham: No, there’s a problem! (to Child P) Has father got keys to the house?
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: [angrily] Has father got keys to the house?
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: Is it a lie? (loudly) Is it a lie? We do not have time for lying. Does father have keys to the house?
Child P: No.
Abraham: What did you give him?
Child P: I showed him his keys, and he copied it, in his key shop. And he got a spare copy of the keys, and I put it back to the key…to our door.|
Abraham: So he’s got a copy of the key. We can change the lock, that’s not a problem. (long pause) Right, we can change the lock to the house. But he won’t come while I’m there.
J-C: Okay.
Abraham: He’s too scared. He’s not a man. He can kill babies, but he can’t fight a man. Be quiet, or you go outside. There you go then. Come here. Outside. [slams door] That’s it. That’s your lack, discipline. … I’m concerned about the mother, she should have been here by now, she’s not answering her phone. … You got me, Jean-Clement?
J-C: Yes, it’s a really difficult situation.
Jean-Clement will investigate, and Abe tells him how
Abraham: Aaaaaaaaaaaaah! But you’re going to come and look for them, Jean-Clement!
J-C: Yeah.
Abraham: And you’re going to take them to court. You see? The sinister is involved. That’s why they can’t explain you the story, I have to explain it all to you first. Yeah?
J-C: Mmmhmm.
Abraham: And then you can ask the questions, you see? It’s pointless you asking the questions until you have the whole story. You’ll be wasting your time asking the wrong question. Yeah?
J-C: Mmmhmm.
The phone videos
Abraham: Where’s my phone?
Child P: Your pocket…
J-C: You left it in the kitchen…
Abraham: I’ll go get it. There’s some, there’s some footage on it. You might want the footage. There’s some news, it’s to do with the children. And these are, these are, these are photos of the secret rooms. These are plans for the houses with the secret rooms. Of the church, with the secret room. This is a video of him talking, there’s another video of him talking, another video of him, another video of him.
J-C: That’s him?
Abraham: Yeah. Too many videos talking about it. These are more plans of secret rooms and secret places. There’s him praying for his sister on the plane.
J-C: (moans) What’s he say?
(sound of children talking on videos)
Abraham: Well we’re not allowed to take them out of Europe.
J-C: Mmmhmm.
[phone rings]
J-C: Okay, um…how far are you? Okay, all right, no problem at all. All right, bye bye.
Abraham: Where is she?
J-C: She’s five, ten minutes away from here she says.
Sandwiches
Abraham: Okay, you’re gonna get to know her now. Her five-ten minutes is half an hour. You’re gonna get to know her. [To a child]: Eh, don’t go to sleep. We’re gonna have a sandwich. Come on, come sit at the table.
J-C: Can I get you some plates, or are you okay?
Abraham: Eh, we’re okay. Wash your hands, don’t make a mess. Come and sit over there together, yeah, please. You’d like a mint tea?
Child P & Child Q: Yes, please.
Child P: Wash your hands, Child Q. …
Abraham: Is there anything you’d like, Jean-Clement?
J-C: No, I’m all right, thank you.
Abraham: You sure?
J-C: Yes.
Abraham: Is everything enough?
Both children: Yes, it’s enough.
Abraham: Sit round at the table properly, son, don’t let me tell you again. Don’t let me tell you again. You sit round properly, thank-you. Thank-you. Don’t let me tell you again, sit round the table properly. [long silence] What are the sandwiches like?
Both children: Yum.
Abraham: You sure?
Child P: Perfect.
[long silence]
Child Q: I was going to say thank you (?).
J-C: Put it on, put it on please.
[murmured conversation between J-C and Abraham]
Abraham: No, it’s not in videos, it’s in the camera.
J-C: No, see I cannot use that iPhone.
Abraham: No.
‘Shut up, June!’
[loud moaning noise]
Abraham: Shut up, June! [to the children]: That’s my sister.
Child Q: Why didn’t she get any [inaud.]?
Abraham: What? Make sure this is on…make sure. [To child]: Take your shoes off! Let’s go and say hello to June, she’s awake now.
J-C: She was fast asleep, Aby!
Abraham: We’ll come say hello quickly.
J-C: She’s resting…
Child P: She’s asleep…
Abraham [talking with mouth full]: Come on! She’s not, she’s awake.
J-C: Ah, thank you for the video, I’ll see that now.
Abraham: What’s that, Jean-Clement?
J-C: I said thank you for putting it up. I’m going to charge it.
Abraham: Oh, that’s just one, Jean-Clement. There’s about 10 videos, they’re all about two minutes. So you got some visual, yeah?
J-C: I’m going to turn the light off Aby.
Abraham: Why?
J-C: Well I thought we were going up?
[shuffling sounds drown out background conversation here—Abe talking to children]
26:55
The social worker is in on it
Abraham: And guess what?
J-C: Mmm.
Abraham: Their social worker. His name is Richie _____. Guess what?
J-C: Which borough?
Abraham: Camden.
J-C: Hampstead. Or Camden.
Abraham: He does sex to you, doesn’t he?
Children [in unison]: Mmm-hmm.
[more hard-to-hear discussion about how best to plug the phone in]
[shuffling noises, door opening and shutting, footsteps]
Abraham: So your mother’s five minutes? Long five minutes, innit?
Child Q: Yeah. It’s already 15 minutes, then.
Abraham: Listen. I don’t [inaud.] in my home. [clapping sound] You want a bit more?
Child Q: Yes please.
Abraham: You need a bit more ‘cause you’re going to have a little chocolate brownie with it and strawberries, is that all right?
Child P or Q: Mmm.
Abraham: Yeah.
Child Q: [inaudible]
Abraham: At the table, you be quiet and you speak when you’re spoken to. Understand?Child Q: Yes, Papa.
Abraham: Come on. Have some respect. Be respectful children, eh.
Child Q: And let’s help the children, let’s help each other.
Abraham: Yeah, let’s help each other and let’s make sure that no more children get killed, eh.
Child Q: And we might uh—
Threatening Jean-Clement
Child P: And make sure Papa goes to jail.
Abraham: Make sure if Jean-Clement doesn’t help us we write a book and we tell them that he didn’t help us, all right? We write the book and we tell that he didn’t help us. We came to him, we relied upon him, and he didn’t help. We write the book and we make him to be a very uncomfortable character in the book, yeah? [wheeze/laughs loudly]
[sounds of videos playing in background]
30:30
‘Nice time’ in Morocco
Abraham: It’s okay.
J-C: There’s another video.
Abraham: If you bring the phone to me I can play all of them.
J-C: No, it’s like, erm, it’s out of charge, Aby.
Abraham: Eh?
J-C: Out of charge.
Abraham: I took them to my friend’s hotel in Morocco. Quiet.
J-C: Okay.
Abraham: We had a nice time, didn’t we?
[silence]
Abraham: What did we do?
Both children: Mmm-hmm…yes…
Child P: I had chips…
Child Q: I had…um, I liked it.
Child P: Really peaceful, really peaceful.
[footsteps]
Abe’s mum
Child P: Let me see how your sister looks like.
Abraham: Here she is with my Mum. That’s my sister on the left, and that’s my Mum.
Child P: Your Mum looks really pretty.
Abraham: Aww…
Child Q: Your mum looks just like our mum. What do you think of your mum? Really pretty and really nice. Does she do like hugging and presents, like giving you presents, and er…she’s a kind person.
Child P: Is she a kind person, like, a kind mum?
Abe: She was a nice mum.
[sound of children on video in background for several minutes]
38:07
‘Fear is the mind killer’
Abraham: Perfect. Perfect. So it’s real.
Child Q: But you actually did…that’s good what you did, that ‘they can’t look after the babies’ [referring to Child P’s video about social services stealing babies from families][more video playback]
J-C: What the book called?
Abraham: It’s a book that I chose.
J-C: Oh, all right.
Abraham: And in the book—it’s a cult classic, you should read it, it’s brilliant—in the book it teaches you that ‘fear is the mind-killer’. Any fear kills your mind, you can’t think properly. So she said she read the book and it taught her….
[more video playback]
J-C: I thought I saw it.
Abraham: In my house in Marrakech.
J-C: That’s right.
[more video playback]
Interrogation about the cult
Abraham: You want to ask me something else? What do you want to ask me?
J-C: About the cult. Em, when do they practise, apart from those three days?
Abraham: When do they practise? Tell Jean-Clement when they practise.
J-C: What’s your name again?
Child P: [gives name].
J-C: Child P. How do you spell that?
Child P: [spells name]
J-C: Oh, well.
Child P: It’s just like…sometimes they practise in the morning sometimes. First thing in the morning they practise.
J-C: Early morning.
Child P: So when we come to school, when the parents…when my mum leaves me, she left the school, goes off, because they check, if it’s clear. If Mum’s there, if she’s around the area of the school. And after if it’s all clear, because they know what kind of car Mum has, because I told them…
Abraham: [cuts her off] Who looks out to see if the coast is clear?
Child P: Mr ____…
Abraham: Who is Mr _____? He’s the big guy, the caretaker?
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: Does he do sex to you?
Child P: Yes. First time…
Abraham: [cuts her off] What about his brothers? Has he got two brothers that come to…
Child P: Yes, he’s got two brothers, one younger one and one…two younger brothers.
Abraham: Do they work at the school?
Child P: Yeah…no, no! They don’t work at the school…
Abraham: Why do they come to the school?
Child P: Because they are his brothers. They need them…
Abraham: [cuts her off] But why do they come there?
Child P: Sex.
Abraham: Sex with who?
Child P: The children.
Abraham: Which children?
Child P: Me, Child Q, the 20 special children…the children at school.
J-C: Who’s [Child Q]?
Child P: Um, that’s him.
J-C: Oh! [long pause] You’re excellent!
Child P: [murmurs something]
J-C: This guy you’re talking about, the caretaker, almost all of those are in their 40s, 50s, isn’t it, caretakers.
Abraham: 40 years, mate.
J-C: And the younger brothers, how old are they? Are they in their 30s?
Child P: Mmm, no, they’re…30s, 30ish. They’re young, they’re young. They look a bit like teenagers.
J-C: Sorry…
Child P: That’s okay.
J-C: So when everyone is gone, then they, they close the whole school?
Child P: No…I don’t understand.
Abraham: When your Mum leaves in the morning—
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: Are there other parents who know, and teachers who know—
Child P: Yes. Yes.
Abraham: And children who know. What happens?
Child P: They make sure the coast is clear. Mum is not there. Mum’s car is not there.
Abraham: Why don’t they want your Mum to be there, why?
Child P: Because they, they won’t touch no one.
Abraham: Why?
Child P: Because if they, if she doesn’t, they want her to know, they want her to be in it, but they know that if she is in it, she’s not like the kind of per–…they know that she’s not the kind of person who’ll be in it, but they’re trying to get her in it.
J-C: OK. And why don’t you tell your Mum?
Child P: Because is they keep—one is because they force us to, they tell us: If you tell them, if you tell Mum, you die, we’ll kill you, and your whole family.
Abraham: One minute, right now.
Child P: And we’ve got to sex…
Abraham: I understand what they do. All children, that’s what they do, that’s why.
J-C: Because fear is the mind killer.
Abraham: All riiiiiiight. You’ve got it, Jean-Clement. So I helped the children face their fear.
‘She can chat rubbish for an hour’
Child P: Mum’s taking for an hour now. Not five minutes.
Abraham: Not…yeah, five minutes she’s gonna be here. Huh?
Child P: So one hour, five minutes.
J-C: ‘If we tell they will kill us’…
Abraham: Yeah. They’ll kill the whole family.
Child P: Our whole family. Our grandparents, everyone we know. Everyone. Everyone who we love, everyone. Our mum. Oh, not Papa. Papa won’t kill himself.
Abraham: Do you think they will kill Uncle Hemp?
Child P: That time when they said it to me, that time they didn’t do it, we don’t know you that time. But when we told…er, when they first saw..met…saw you in school, they got alerted then. They got, so they got scared. And then they…
Abraham: [cuts her off] When they first saw me in the school they got scared? Why would they get scared of a little man like me?
J-C: Because you mean them harm?
Abraham: What? What do you mean? I didn’t know anything.
Child P: No, that time you didn’t know nothing. Did not know anything. That time we were keeping a secret.
J-C: So you and your brother, you knew.
Child P: Yes! We were doing it since we were babies!
Abraham: [talking over her] Everybody in the school knew. Everybody in the school knew except me…
J-C: …and Mum.
Abraham: All riiiiiight! But when I went to the school…you know us black people, we have big noses. [loud wheeze/cough]
J-C: Is that…the whole school close for the cult?
Child P: Yes, the whole school does it….
Abraham: Not close! Open for the cult.
J-C: No, close like…
Abraham: No, open.
J-C: They look at the whole gates, they check…
Child P: Yes, yes, yes…Mr _____, Mr _____ and Papa, they go around, they walk around the school, in Hampstead, in Hampstead areas around school, they check if this, because they know what my mum’s car is, because they saw it once, because Papa was spying on Mama coming out in the car, with me and [Child Q]. He was once spying, I saw him just hiding, just like…because you know when we come out of car?…
Abraham: Enough. Enough! Just answer the question.
Child P: Because he just, um, spies on Mum. He spies…
Abraham: Enough, enough! [to J-C]: Ask her another question, she can chat rubbish for an hour.
J-C: But let…
Abraham: [coughs loudly] No, I let them talk. But when she starts to waffle, I know what to do. I know!
J-C: Yeah, okay, okay.
Abraham: She can’t help it. Don’t stare at me while you’ve got the cup in your mouth. Don’t stare at me from behind your cup.
47:40
‘I knew you would be impressed’
J-C: How do you spell dad’s surname?
Abraham: D-E-A…Dear-Man.
J-C: Hmm…I see “Richard”.
Abraham: Yeah.
J-C: Richard.
Child P: Yes. Ricky Dearman.
Abraham: Richard.
Child P: No, his name is Ricky.
Abraham: It’s Richard but he calls himself Ricky.
J-C: How old is he?
Abraham: 46.
Child P: No, he’s not 46, he’s 44. He’s young.
Abraham: 45.
J-C: [laughs]
[inaudible]
Abraham: Tell Jean-Clement. Ask them more questions.
J-C: When do you go to that school? What’s that school called?
Abraham: Christ Church.
Child P: Christ Church Primary School.
Abraham: [yells] YEAH!! I knew you would like that one! I knew you would like that one! ‘Christ’ Church. That’s how I knew!
Child P: Christ Church Primary School. N13…
Abraham: I knew you would like that one, Jean-Clement! I knew you would be impressed with that. (to Child P): Tell him about some of the other schools that are doing it.
Child P: Mmm, Hampstead, Robert Parochial…all the schools in Hampstead around the area. St Luke’s, um, New End…
J-C: Just sorry, sorry, Child P. You gave me the post code NW1, you say?
Child P: Yeah, Christ Church School, Christ Church Primary School…N13 72J.
[doorbell sounds]
J-C: (writing?) N13…
Abraham: Hey, N13.
J-C: [inaudible]
Child P: Sorry? I can’t hear you.
J-C: G?
Child P: No, no, no, no, no. J. Like in ‘James’.
J-C: And the school? Give me those schools you talked about.
Child P: New End, New End, Bickstrom’s (?)…
J-C: New End…
Abraham: (calling from another room) Child Q?
Child Q: Yes?
J-C: [inaudible]
Child P: He told me to say!
J-C: He’s talking about that…
Child P: I think she’s [inaud.]
J-C: Oh! Ah… New End? They’re all in Hampstead.
Both children: Yes.
Child P: All the schools in Hampstead, around the area. All the…St Luke’s, all kind of schools like that. Fitzjohn’s, New End, um, there’s just other schools. D’you know the school with this tree?
J-C: No!
Child Q: That’s (?) school, that’s the tree symbol. I think Hampstead Heath School, something like that. Hampstead Heath Primary School.
Child P: My brother, he went to Fitzjohn’s when he was little.
[sounds of sticks banging together in another room?]
J-C: Okay, then.
Child P: Fitzjohn’s.
J-C: You’re always going to Christ Church Primary School?
Child Q: All the time, since year 1. Except when we didn’t go, cos that time we didn’t go to school that time.
Abraham: Child P!
Child P: Yes?
Abraham: Come and clean up the food, please.
[sounds of people moving around]
Abraham: Lie down…lie down…Mother?…Here.
Child P: I need paper.
Abraham: Child Q!
Child Q: Yes?
Abraham: Go on, pick it all up, son. Don’t step in it! Don’t talk, just pick it up, yeah?…
‘It’s because she was too busy taking a shower!’
Abraham: Jean Clement!
J-C: Mmm?
Abraham: Look at me. I came from the airport like this.
J-C: You just come!
Abraham: I came from the airport like this. I came from the airport like this. I haven’t had time to wash or nothing. The mother, she got time to shower, to fix her face…it’s not funny!
J-C: It’s a little bit…
Abraham: [angrily] NO! This is her children’s welfare. It’s not time for this bullshit…
J-C: Yeah…yeah…yeah…
Abraham: It’s because she didn’t see it that it was able to develop to this degree, you understand? Because she was too busy taking a shower!
Questions about timing
J-C: When did you become aware of this? When did you become aware that…when did they start doing these things to you?
Child Q: Like since we, so well, since we started…
Child P: Well, the first time…
J-C: Year 1? Junior 1?
Child P: Yes.
Child Q: The first first time…
Abraham: Since she was a baby, her father was doing…
Child P: The first time…
J-C: She wasn’t aware then.
Abraham: No, but the mother was starting to suspect.
Child P: Since we were babies they were doing it to us, but we didn’t know, that’s when I started to go well…
[loud sounds of washing up]
J-C: So was after school as well? After school?
Child P: After school they don’t do it. After school we come back home.
J-C: Ah, you come back home.
[more washing up sounds]
Ella chimes in
Abraham: Ella? Ella? Jean-Clement.
Ella: Pleased to meet you.
J-C: How do you do? …That’s some really disturbing news…
Ella: Mmmhmm, it were, one of the reasons we come here, you know. [laughs] For quite a while…
[inaudible over washing sounds]
J-C: Aby told me that you got more information, so…
Ella: I brought…
J-C: But if you got most of the information it’s much better from you.
Ella: Of course.
J-C: Water?
Ella: I’m fine.
J-C: Is all your court orders in place?
Ella: Mmmhmm.
J-C: Which of you, are having the kids two times per week? (???)
Ella: Mmm, twice, mmm, every two weeks.
J-C: Every two weeks. Right. But you can’t justify that. Their behaviour can just prevent you from seeing Dad. Now, we need some specific information, like people, or whatever…
Ella: We got that.
J-C: I know. That’s what Aby said. So…
[sounds of moving around]
Child P: Where is the bin?
J-C: Oh, I put it outside. Yeah, in the front…
[sounds of Ella and Abe conferring in low voices]
Abraham: It’s okay, she’s on our side, okay? She’s on our side. Yeah?
Child P: We got our sandwiches and we got a bit of chocolate cake.
J-C: And you got some paper?
Ella: Yes. And it’s a good thing [inaud.]
J-C: is it better to record this so I don’t have to keep on writing?
Ella: What I have is this here [sound of zipper] that has all the things. You know, like…addresses…
J-C: You want my email address?
Ella: This could be a bit, a bit, a bit, umm, how do you say…a bit of a problem.
J-C: I’ll come over.
Ella: Because we be kind of like I didn’t go through it, or edit it, or anything like that.
J-C: It’s not edited.
Ella: So, uh, no, but it’s, it’s, it’s okay…
J-C: No, that’s exactly what you want!
Ella: Sometimes, it’s maybe difficult…
J-C: No, that’s exactly what you want, something which is not edited.
Ella: Oh, and what is the address I should send it to?
J-C: ‘Jean…’
Ella: I don’t speak English, but I can send it to you, you know? I’ll send you the brief. Er, Jean-Clement Yaohirou, at xxx.com, yes.
J-C: Yeah. I have another brief, that’s what that may be.
[Loud noise in background—dishes being put away?]
Ella: We just come up today because we were talking to them.
J-C: Then you come tell me. So I don’t…I’m just looking at you, I can guess, right, I’m having to write. Because if I’m writing, I won’t be actually listening.
Ella: Okay.
J-C: I’m gonna need some specifics though.
Ella: Okay. So do you want me to just read it out, or…?
J-C: No, just in the list, it’s all right.
Ella: Yes, it’s all written.
Abraham’s sister
Abraham: (to the children) A bit more tea so you can drink a bit of tea, okay?
Children: Thank you Papa.
Abraham: You got your glasses? Here’s a little picture of my Mum and my sister.
Child P: That’s Mum, the one who’s sitting, but the one who’s standing up is his sister.
Abraham: I’ll take them out.
J-C: Yes, please, Aby, thank you.
Abraham: Now let’s go see the picture. You see my mum?
Child P: She looks just like you, the mum. The mum looks just like you. Look, she has really greasy hair. Your mum is just as special as my mum.
Ella: Which one?
Abraham: That’s my mum and my sister June. The one that makes me crazy. She’s married to Jean-Clement.
Ella: Okay [laughs].
Child Q: She’s married? To Jean-Clement?
Ella: I’m sure she’s very sweet.
Abraham: Yeah…she got very lucky. Or Jean-Clement got bad luck.
J-C: [laughs]
Child Q: I think that’s the same. Like Child P, she could be like Child P, they’re brothers and sisters.
Abraham: Shh, don’t talk, no talking. Drink. Now come with me.
Abraham humiliates Jean-Clement
Ella: I’ve got them, few of them…
Abraham: Well done, Mama. (To children): Come on, we’ve got peaches and chocolate cake, come on…
Child P: Lucky!
Abraham: Peaches and chocolate cake and strawberries, eh? You got to come with me, though. (To Ella) Show him the drawings. (To J-C): We’ll show you now that we know what we’re doing.
Ella: This is, um…drawing…
Abraham: The drawing of the private parts of the headmistress. Is that the headmistress? That’s the headmistress that’s got the private part tattoo. Don’t be embarrassed, Jean-Clement! I’m sure you’ve seen females’ private parts before.
J-C: Not with tattoos.
Abraham: [laughs loudly]
J-C: Okay…now you guys go ahead and just talk.
Abraham: [laughs again] ‘Not with tattoos’, very good.
Ella: [sound of shuffling papers] And, um, there’s more, there’s some more, few other people. What I’ve got, what have I got? I’ve got…mmm…where is this? (to Abraham) Did you give it to me?
Abraham: Yes, in the other book.
Ella: In the other book. There’s two books. The plans as well for the church and school.
J-C: Who drew these ones?
Abraham/Ella: The children.
Abraham: This is a picture of…who drew this?
Ella: Child P.
Abraham: Who is this? This is the headmistress?
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: This is Papa?
Child P: No, no, no! …Yes.
Abraham: This is Papa?
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: And this is Mr ____.
Child P: No, the headmistress is first, and the middle is Papa.
Abraham: I know that! Headmistress…Papa…Mr _____.
J-C: What’s, erm…
Abraham: These red things? These are birthmarks they have. The headmistress has a big, pink…a big pink birthmark. I wonder how the children could know that the headmistress has a big, pink, birthmark? And how could they also know that she has a tattoo? And how could they also draw it so intricately? How could they know about the headmistress’s birthmark so intimately? How could they also know…
J-C: Um, what…
Abraham: …big brown wart…
J-C: Where are they actually?
Child Q: Miss _____.
Abraham: Here. Here. Where’s the birthmark?
J-C: No, no, no…
Abraham: Come and show Jean-Clement where the birthmark…Let them show you!
Jean-Clement demurs
J-C: No, no, no, we’re not specialists for children, we can’t hear this…
Abraham: Jean-Clement…
J-C: Specialty people can…
Abraham: Just get the information please.
J-C: So it’s just on the thighs?
Abraham: No, it’s not on the thighs…
J-C: I..I…you’re telling me…
Abraham: No, Jean-Clement. Your sensibilities…look, if he was white, you’d see he’s blushing now. [laughs]
Ella: They are basically between the legs on the front privates.
J-C: All right. Okay, that’s better.
Ella: So there is, mmm, the…
J-C: Aby, you’re terrible, eh?
Abraham: Thank you. It’s my job.
Ella: But we’ve got the plans and earphones, we can just…but I didn’t do…
Abraham: Yes, we’ve got full plans, yes, I showed Jean-Clement. He’s got my phone there somewhere.
Ella: I thought there was everything in one book, so I only took that…
Abraham: Ella, Ella, we’ve got both books, Ella, you’ve got…
Ella: No, no, no…the same one, the same one with…
Abraham: We’ve got the plans, we’ve got the plans. Of the secret rooms where they keep the skulls. Also, where do they keep the bowl that they catch the blood in, and the knife that they cut the baby with?
The secret wardrobe
Child P: There’s a cupboard there.
Abraham: A cupboard where, darling?
Child P: (long pause) There’s a cupboard in the secret room, and next to it…in the wardrobe, you have to come in the wardrobe.
J-C: So there’s a…is that a walk-in wardrobe?
Child P: Yes. And just on the side there’s a little cupboard, and when you go in the secret room…
J-C: So you go in the cupboard, and then you go down the stairs.
Child P: So there’s a wardrobe, so it’s in his bedroom though.
J-C: All right.
Ella: We’re talking about what, Child P—the church, or his house?
Abraham: Papa’s bedroom.
Child P: So when you go in his house, see, here’s his room, here’s the door when you come in the room. So you come in, here’s a wardrobe. Open it up, and then just on the side there’s a little cupboard. And when you come inside, there’s another, you see you’ve just got like hangers with coats, and you have to part them, and you can see a little door there. You have to open it, and there’s stairs going down, towards this big secret room, with a big secret kitchen. And there’s cupboards there, there’s a cupboard just there, and they keep the cutlery…
Ella and RD’s living situation
J-C: have you seen that room?
Abraham: They keep the cutlery…we haven’t seen any…
Ella: Actually we didn’t even know, because…
J-C: You live there?
Abraham: No.
Ella: No, no no, it’s his house.
J-C: Oh, you live different?
Ella: I haven’t seen him for over than two, like two months ago, I haven’t seen him maybe for two or three years…
J-C: So you never used to live before, together?
Ella: This…no, no, no, no. Um, wish we didn’t live together. I mean he was staying in house for little while, then he found another flat, um, not very far, actually the next street. Then he been, kind of like just going down, um, and he was bought four or five years, it was 2009. Wait, 2009, I think? Yeah.
Abraham: Mum, it’s raw. It’s raw vegan, okay?
J-C: He move out of the family room…of the family house?…That correct? He move out of the family house?
Ella: No, no, no. He never lived in my house actually. Um, he had a flat. On the next nearby road.
J-C: Okay…
Ella: He stayed in my house maybe only for half…for three months? Or year, something like that. I don’t remember right now very well. And that kind of relationship was going on maybe for two years, two and a half years…
J-C: But you never used to live together.
Ella: Mmm…no.
J-C: All right, okay.
Ella and RD: Legal proceedings
Ella: Only just for a very short period of time, and um, so he had this flat for two years on nearby road, literally around the corner, and since 2010…yeah, 2011 I applied for the non-molestation order, because he was violent to me…
J-C: What is that?
Ella: Non-molestation order. And since then the legal proceeding started for two years.
J-C: Since when? 2012?
Ella: 2010. For two years. And basically he wanted me to give him the children. Really I wanted to kind of limit…I mean, I didn’t know what was going on.
J-C: Right.
Ella: I knew was something…
J-C: So you wanted to split like, half responsibility for the children?
Ella: No, no, no. I didn’t want to give him the children.
J-C: No. You wanted responsibility for the children, that’s why you started the court proceeding. For, you wanted to get them. That’s basically why you wanted to do that.
Ella: Well, yes. He was violent to me. On, you know, several occasions. And once it was quite bad one. He almost killed me.
J-C: You called the police?
Ella: Yeah. I’ve got like five call in to the police.
J-C: Okay.
Ella: And that time he was arrested. And it was, you know, quite bad, and he was…
J-C: So all this was in 2010.
Ella: This was end of 2009, this incident happened.
J-C: So he was arrested around 2009.
Ella: Yeah. But then, he showed up in my house one day when my mum was there, and there was a big argument there, where he pushed my mum, and then soon after, I applied for this non-molestation order.
J-C: And what was it for? ABH, or…
Ella: It was just kind of protection like bail, you know, where he couldn’t…
J-C: Then he was arrested in 2009 for being violent towards you?
Ella: Yeah, domestic violence…
J-C: Ah, for domestic violence.
Ella: For damage to…to…
J-C: Property?
Ella: To property because he’d broken a glass or something else, um…
J-C: And also, your mum was present.
Ella: No, no, no, this was second time, when…um, he…
J-C: After legal proceeding?
Ella fighting RD over contact
Ella: No, no, no, that was this incident, after he was arrested, he had a bail for one month where he couldn’t go round certain radius to my house, and then, about two or three months later, um, this incident happened between him and my mum, and then I applied for non-molestation order. I received it ex parte, and they gave me for three months, but then it was, um, prolonged for another half a year. Now, since then the legal proceedings started. He was fighting for his contact, I tried to limit it as much as possible. So they did allow contacts. It wasn’t every day, it was every two weeks, or…
Child Q: Every Saturday!
Ella: Every Saturday for six hours. From ten to…no, it was a long day, it was, um…
Abraham: (returning from another room) Jean-Clement, I just want to remind you that the solicitors who are in the area are generally involved in the cult. I’m just sharing with you, just to remind you. Sorry, I just thought I’d interject there.
Ella: Yeah, yeah. Um…
J-C: So contact was allowed from 10 to 6?
Ella: 10 to 6, yes. All day. It was all day. All day every Saturday.
J-C: But he has to come to the house, so…
Ella: No, no…it was, um….
J-C: He have to bring the children.
Ella: We arrange to…
J-C: To meet somewhere.
Ella: Somewhere in a public place.
J-C: So he can’t be over, so he probably have to be there for 8 o’clock, so he phone you and tell you the time is coming? How does it work?
Ella: We had fixed hours. 10 o’clock until 6 p.m…. 10 a.m. to 6 p.m.
J-C: Yeah.
Ella: And, um…
J-C: Every Saturday?
Ella: Yeah. But it didn’t go well, this contact. It was constant problems. I mean he would be feeding them some junk, they were coming sick back home, and so it was like finally, in 2012, I think it was about September, October, it was two incidents, one I wasn’t aware of, until later, but the main one, he retained children at unknown address. Now, during this time, he gave court different addresses, and so looks like he was staying here, staying there, and then at the final hearing, he all of a sudden declare he doesn’t want contacts any more. He doesn’t want contacts, so he give up the contacts…
J-C: So that’s 2012.
Ella: 2012.
J-C: That was the end of 2012.
RD gave up contact
Ella: Yeah, in December 2012. Now then, he disappeared for maybe about a year and a half.
Child P: Two years…two years but he was actually coming to the school.
Abraham: Aaaaah…
Ella: But I didn’t know that, I thought…for one year, I know he was travelling.
J-C: So you decided not to have contact for like almost a year.
Ella: He gave up. He gave up contact completely.
J-C: But just gave up?
Ella: Yeah, at the hearing he declared he doesn’t want…
J-C: Ah, so you went to a hearing in December, you went to court.
Ella: It was a hearing, I mean basically he would have received contact, they would allow him to do contact. But all of a sudden he said that he found he can’t fight any more, something like that, he said that he had no money for solicitors, even though he was representing himself…
J-C: Yeah, so he relinquished…
Ella: Yeah.
Abraham: He relinquished.
Ella: Mmm. And he said that, you know, I’m creating all kinds of obstacles for him not to see children, which I really did. I mean, within what…within my, kind of order. Yeah, so. He’s disappeared, but then I learned from different…
J-C: For how long?
Ella: Maybe for…for a year and a half.
J-C: So from that December…
Ella: From that December until June 2013.
J-C: That only last like six months, you know.
Ella: No?
J-C: That’s six months. So you mean June ’14.
Ella: Maybe I’ve got the years wrong. I think…
J-C: You will only know if you look at the court papers anyway.
Abraham: Yeah.
Ella: The final hearing, it was not the end of 2012, it was 2011.
J-C: Yes, yeah.
Ella: Must be the proceedings started in 2009.
J-C: So he said he didn’t want any responsibility.
Ella: No….I heard from some people who know him that he was either in America? He was in America I think.
Child P: Yes.
Ella: How did you know? Are you having once conversation on Skype with him, right? Around Christmas or something, no?
Child P: No, I don’t remember that time.
Ella: Remember he told you he was doing some video in America, remember?
Child P: When I was little, though. When I was a tiny girl.
Ella: No, no, it was maybe when you were about six? Uh, seven, you were seven.
Child P: No, I don’t remember that.
‘Inappropriate subjects’
Ella: It was something once, she had a conversation on Skype around Christmas time, and he said, told children he was in America. I think maybe two, three, four months he was there? Then I know he was in India, but I don’t know exactly, you know, at that time, and the children also mentioned he was in Thailand around this time. And 2013, in June, at the end of June, he asked me to talk to them. And I allowed. So it was three times that we spoke on Skype, but then he started to bring up some inappropriate subjects during the Skype. He sent me, for example, he sent me two emails saying that he saw me on some porn sites, and I ignored it. And I think I responded to his second email saying, you know, don’t send me this kind of email, something like that, and then…and then he brought it up again during Skype conversation. With children. Typing it, like you know, to give to children, you know, to send me this kind of message as well. And I said you know, if you’re going to carry on, we’re just going to stop this. And then [inaud.] didn’t happen, and I just cut it off. And in September, he applied…
J-C: September ’13.
RD blocks Ella’s attempt to leave the country
Ella: September ’13, I had an opportunity to move, to the south of France. I had some friends who invited me to go, and they…
J-C: Vous parlez français?
Ella: Un peu. And since he hadn’t like [didn’t show up?] I thought if he doesn’t give me written permission, which is procedure, I may go to the court, and you know say that he hasn’t seen children…
J-C: But he had [inaud.] order already, why would you need written permission?
Ella: He did have order. At the final hearing they gave me a residence order, they arrange any contacts.
J-C: Ah, all right, I see.
Ella: So in September I called him, while my children were with my parents in Russia.
J-C: They were on holiday.
Ella: They were on holidays, yes, summer holidays.
J-C: That was like September ’13?
Ella: Yeah. So I go to him and say I’m thinking to move to the south of France, I mean, I have no idea, and I knew that this was the procedure, because I enquired with solicitors much, much before, you know, what if I wanted to move out of the country, what the steps would be. So I give him a call saying that I’m thinking to do that, you know, and he says no, he’s not going to allow it to happen, so okay, I knew my next step will be, like, to go to court. However, on the 4th of September, I think it was a Friday, the next working day he went and applied for prohibit steps, saying that I’m taking out, that I’m trying to take them out of the country, and something, few other things like that. I’ve been abusive to children, and another application he made for the residence of children at that time. And so it was a hearing at the end of 2013, it was like intermediate, and nothing was decided. And the contacts was not allowed, nothing. Nevertheless, nevertheless in November there was anonymous call to NCPCC, child protection, um, agency, saying they give couple, uh, couple basically about me, saying that I’ve been abusive to children, I don’t feed them, I’m mentally unstable, and something else, um, something else. Apparently, I found, I was suspecting as much, a, um, neighbour, upstairs, that we had a bit of a problem, you know she didn’t like trampoline in the garden. I thought she just wanted to create problems.
The troublesome neighbour: Part of the cult?
Abraham: Trampoline…We had a big trampoline, we got a big trampoline in the garden. The neighbour above, she complained about the trampoline, she complained about just about anything should could find to complain about.
Ella: But it was a communal garden. Actually, shouldn’t put a private property in the garden. But, you know, she didn’t like it. Apparently, the same lady she’s part of this cult as well. Now looks like they—
J-C: OK. The lady, who live above you …
Ella: Yeah.
J-C: … is part of the cult?
Ella: Yeah.
J-C: But you didn’t know?
Ella: I had no idea, I had no idea.
J-C: The kids never told you about any abuse that was happening to them?
Ella: Nothing at all.
Abraham: Did the lady upstairs abuse you? She never touched you, did she?
Child P: No, but Papa is friends with her. She met, they met each other.
Abraham: Papa is friends with her. But she doesn’t have an appetite for children?
Child P: No.
Abraham: She is just friends, she is just an associate of the cult, she helps them and they help her.
Child P: She doesn’t, she doesn’t really like children.
Abraham: She doesn’t really like children?
J-C: Okay.
Ella: She tries to cover things for him and—
Child P: Aggressive.
J-C: Did she ever attended any of the…schools?
Child P: Does she have children?
J-C: No. Did she attended any of the meetings?
Ella: The parties.
J-C: The cult.
Child P: Yes. She’s friends with Papa. She’s friends with my Dad. But she doesn’t like, she doesn’t like the children, she doesn’t like touching them. Well, she does, she likes like what Papa’s doing to them. Because he’s mean to them, she’s mean to them, but she doesn’t touch them because she doesn’t like, she doesn’t even like to be near children. She’s not…she’s aggressive.
J-C: But she attended meeting?
Ella: She was at the parties?
Child P: Yes.
Ella: …you know, these fun sex parties, which she told me…
Child P: Yes, yes.
Ella: And she did do the, did she participated in the, um, you know, killing babies and drinking blood and all this?
Child P: Yes, yes, yes. But she doesn’t, she doesn’t touch like, she doesn’t go near children.
J-C: She doesn’t get involved, she just watches.
Child P: Yes.
J-C: And she doesn’t get involved.
Child P: Yes. But she does, she does sometimes does drink blood, she does.
Ella: And she eats meat as well?
Child P: Yes. She usually does.
J-C: So when she goes there with you, and you know she goes there…
Child P: Yes?
J-C: …and you see her…
Child P: Mmmhmm?
J-C: …in your…in the passage or in the corridor, do you speak to her?
Child P: No. She doesn’t talk to children.
J-C: Oh, she doesn’t talk to children.
Child P: She doesn’t like children. She doesn’t like.
J-C: So she doesn’t bother you at all?
Child P: Mmm-mmm. She doesn’t like children.
Ella suspected the neighbour, then says Child P made it up
1:19:15
Ella: And, mmm, also she said the name of the school. I suspected it was her, well, at first actually I thought it was him, made the phone call, but then she said I had aggressive partner. I mean I didn’t have anybody in my life at that time, I wasn’t in a relationship. So I thought you know, where did she get this piece of information, because she just moved in? Like a year before. She didn’t know anything.
J-C: So she moved in around 2010–12?
Ella: Yeah. But I thought where’d she get this information. But when children mentioned that it’s her, because she did…did you hear the conversation between her and, um…
Child P: No.
Ella: No, you made it up, hmm? I suspect her. No, I don’t know for certain it was her. However, someone made this anonymous phone call. The matter was transferred to social services. Now because the social services involved, court wanted some report from child agency. Yeah. They normally would get it from Cafcass, but they said since social services already involved, we would like, because they know your family, would like to get a report from them. Now, social services got involved, they said to come to my house, um, there were few meetings in school, and the last one, I took children to the social services for an hour, to have a meeting with this appointed whoever…um, person, and him [RD]. One hour. And so that’s after that, they dropped that report now. I was in communication social services, and I said I mean, he was making them sick, he was feeding them weird things and they would I mean throw up, they would come in with fever, so I really don’t want to, um…I knew he was gonna receive something, said minimum what I wanted in um, in um, say um, you know, in those centres, what’s it called? Centres…ummm…ummm…what is called those centres where you bring children and someone is like in a…
J-C: Playgroup?
Ella: Not playgroup…what is called, you know, where the court is happening and um…some governmental offices, and…
J-C: Okay.
Ella: …and there be someone there…and be like…
J-C: Yeah, is a controlled area.
Ella: Supervised contact, this is it.
J-C: Supervised contact, sorry.
Ella: And so was pushing for that, they give him four hours every two weeks. They told me three contacts so far happened. This is where we are. It’s here…
Abraham: And every time he has a contact…. And also, did you mention the fact that he’s been going to the school?
J-C: We haven’t touched this one yet. She’s explaining the reason why they’re not together because I started ‘how come she didn’t know?’
Abraham: Okay.
J-C: Yeah. That’s what she’s explaining. And later we come to what happened to the kids.
Abraham: Okay.
‘He gets out his spoon, he gives us licks’
J-C: Because at one point, the kids must have said to themselves, enough is enough, I’m going to tell Mum.
Abraham: Yeah. They did.
J-C: That’s what I’m going to come…
Abraham: They did get to the point of telling Mum. Child P wanted to tell. How many times did you want to tell?
Child P: A few but not a lot. Not a lot.
Abraham: A few because you were scared.
J-C: How did she come to talk to you?
Child P: What did you tell to him? I think…
Ella: I think they were….what I understand from what happened was that they were beaten, they were hurt, and they were really scared. And um…
J-C: Who did that? Who beat you?
Child Q: Mmm, Papa. He gets out his spoon, he gives us licks, like, um, salad ones…not like…
Abraham: Big metal spoons…
Child P: No, like you know the ones you dish out pasta…?
J-C: Ahh.
Child P: You know the big, big ones, he hits us on the head with them, to make sure it hurts, we scream, or we say it hurts…
Injections in the neck?
Abraham: Tell him what if you scream, what happens?
Child P: If we scream, so loud, or if we even make a noise, he gets Miss _____ to inject me…
Abraham: Who’s Miss _____?
Child P: The nurse. Of our school.
J-C: Do you know her?
Abraham and Ella: Yeah.
Abraham: She tries to be superficially to be nice to Mum. (To children): And what do she do to you?
J-C: Miss…_____…
Child P: Inject us. Which puts us to sleep.
Abraham: She injects you?
Ella: (spells out name)
Abraham: Just a moment. So she injects you?
Child P: Yes. On the neck.
Abraham: And she…and what happens when she injects you on the neck?
Child Q: We feel…when he injects us…
Abraham: You feel drowsy.
Child Q: We feel like, we feel like, just like we’re gonna have, we have no energies like…like we want to…
Abraham: To go to sleep.
Child P: To go to sleep, we can’t stand any more, so, yeah, like that.
Abraham: Okay.
Ella: And that’s when they do sex to you.
Child P: Mmmhmm. And after when you woke they just, and after when they’re finished to do sex with me and Child Q, leave us in a room, in the dark and go to the other classes.
J-C: So how do you know that they do sex to you if you’re drowsy?
Abraham: Shh-shh!
Child P: No, because you can see Miss _____, I saw Miss _____ inject him. And I fell down, because I was standing up…
J-C: But how do you know that they’re doing sex to you if you’re drowsy and you’re sleepy?
Child P: I saw, I saw, I saw! They injected him! I saw they injected him.
J-C: Okay…
Child Q: And they fell down…
Child P: He didn’t fall down, he…
J-C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
Abraham: And then what do they do…
Child P: And they were doing sex to him while he was…injected.
Child Q: Because Child P was watching.
J-C: So you’re standing there watching him…
Child P: Yes.
J-C: …but you’re not injected.
Child P: Yeah…um…
Ella: They would only do…they would only…do it to children who scream too much.
J-C: Okay, the rest is just…
Ella: They will do whatever they want to do with them, if they don’t listen they would hit them, if hitting doesn’t help, inject them. And, um, I mean, while…
What size was that wart again?
J-C: How’s your schoolwork?
Abraham: There’s no schoolwork. Jean-Clement, un moment s’il vous plait. (To children): Now Miss _____, is she a member of the cult?
Child P: Yes!
Abraham: Does she do sex to you?
Child P: Yes!
Abraham: Does she get naked?
Child P: Yes!
Child Q: She got a big black wart on her privates.
Child P: Like a 50p, um, coin.
Abraham: No, a 5p coin.
Child P: A 5p coin.
Abraham: She’s got a big, black wart where? On her privates where?
Child P: On lips.
Abraham: Right on the lips of her private privates!
Child P: Right on it.
Abraham: A big, black wart the size of a…how could you know that she got a big black wart the size of a 5 pence piece on her private parts?
Child P: We seen it.
Abraham: You’ve seen her naked, have you?
Child Q: We’ve seen everybody naked!
Abraham: Oh my God! Have you seen Jean-Clement naked?
Children: No…
Abraham: Thank goodness for that. [laughs]
‘She let me measure it!’
Child Q: But I’ve seen Mum naked.
J-C: It’s the size of 5p?
Child P: Yeah, like a 5p coin size.
Child Q: I measured it! I asked her can I measure it, then she let me. And it was a 5p coin.
Ella: What, with a ruler?
Child Q: Yeah, yeah, it was like…it was a tiny weenie bit, um, like, really fat, and it was like that big, it looks like that big, something like that. On the lips. And I knew it was a tiny bit…
Abraham: [cuts him off] Has she got a tattoo as well?
Child Q: Yes!
Abraham: She got a tattoo!
Child Q: Everybody does!
Child P: But she makes the wart so it’s on the devil’s cheek, to make it look like the devil got a wart on his…
Who has tattoos?
Child Q: Me, Child P, and J____ don’t have no um, no um, how you…
J-C: Tattoo.
Child P: But they want Mum to be sucked in…
Abraham: Why? So the reason you haven’t got tattoos is because Mum’s not in the gang. But if Mum was in the gang you’d get a tattoo.
[Children start to speak]
Abraham: How about if I joined the gang, would they give you a tattoo then?
Child P: Yeah, Mum.
Child Q: If she…
Abraham: Is it because I’m black?
Child P: No, it’s not because you’re black…
Abraham: What about If I joined the cult and I say it’s okay for you to have a tattoo, what then?
Child Q: Yeah, you do…
Child P: Mum…Mum!
Abraham: What tattoo d’you want?
Child P: I don’t want a tattoo, I…
Abraham: Neither do I.
Child Q: Cos you can’t take it off then, it would stay there forever.
Abraham: That’s right. And they pretend to you…tell them what, tell them what they tell you…
Child P: And then they say to us that it’s easy to take it off…
Child Q: They say to us, you have to do a…
Child P: You have to do an operation, just take two seconds and done. And they say it’s just easy, and they try and make us believe that, and if you get a tattoos, like a normal tattoos, like a child one, they say that it’s like a child one. So you put on, and then it can just go off, straight away. That’s what they say. And after, they do say…
Child Q: They don’t, like say, ‘you’ll need an operation, it’ll be easy’, they don’t just say that. They say it’s just a normal child’s tattoo, like a normal one from Tesco…you know the fake ones!
Abraham: Who said if you wash it, it’ll go?
Child Q: Papa!
Abraham: Do you believe him?
Child P: No…
Ella: The other children have the tattoo. It doesn’t wash off, no?
Child P: No!
Abraham: Who’s got a tattoo? Tell me who’s got a tattoo?
Child Q: Everybody does.
Abraham: Everybody can’t have one.
Child Q: No, but not all the children, not the children…
Abe admits the tattoos are meaningless
J-C: The tattoo bit is the most important part, because…
Child Q: And the rings?
J-C: Yep! Because, um…
Ella: And piercing as well, they have.
J-C: Yyyyes. Because on the private parts…
Abraham: It doesn’t prove anything.
J-C: It’s on the private parts.
Abraham: It doesn’t prove anything. I can put that on my private parts. It doesn’t prove anything. Tattoo doesn’t prove anything, Jean-Clement.
J-C: Aby, let me finish.
Abraham: I’ll let you finish!
J-C: Okay. The tattoo, see, they can tell the name of the people, tattoo.
Ella: You’re right.
J-C: And how would they see another person with that person’s tattoo?
Ella: Sorry, can you say again?
J-C: How would they see another person’s private, if they’re not part of the family?Abraham: That’s right. How would they see them?
J-C: So…that’s what I was asking.
Abraham: How would they see the privates?
J-C: That’s why it’s important for them to describe them.
Abraham: Of course it’s important. Jean-Clement, look. I’m totally with you—the fact that they have…I was very happy to find that out about the tattoos. The fact that they all have tattoos is one thing. And the fact that you wouldn’t see someone, you wouldn’t see someone…
J-C: I didn’t want to cause any…
Abraham: You wouldn’t see someone’s private parts unless, as you pointed out, you were a close family member. However, it still proves nothing.
J-C: Why?
Abraham: Cause it proves nothing. They may have seen it in swimming. They may—I’m just saying, Jean-Clement…
J-C: Okay…
Ella: All the staff? All the teachers?
Abraham: Mama, I know they’ve—
Ella: The parents?
Abraham: I know this, but what I’m telling you is that as evidence, it proves nothing.
J-C: It’s for them, the most straight (?). To anyone questioning…
Abraham: Why have these children been able to see this?
J-C: That’s right!
Abraham: Of course!
Child Q: Because everybody likes to dance naked…
J-C: It will be ‘how does this child know, you’ve got a tattoo on your privates’?
Abraham: Because it’s common knowledge around the school.
Child Q: Because some people like to dance naked…
Abraham: It’s common knowledge around the school.
Child Q: It’s your choice, with skulls or not…
J-C: Okay.
Abraham: Thank you. That’s what I’m saying. It proves nothing.
Child Q: I would like one with skulls…
J-C: That’s fine.
‘You mean, you dance with the skulls’
Child Q: We do it with skulls most of the time because Papa forces me to.
Abraham: To do what?
Child Q: To have skulls.
Abraham: Where?
Child Q: On my body!
Abraham: Oh, you mean you dance with the skulls.
Child Q: But I don’t want to! He said it’s my…
Child P: Because it hurts. When you do it on the skulls. On Child Q it hurts.
Child Q: Yeah but I don’t…they give us the most hurting one. But you want to be like the best children…
Child P: …and it has like sharp bits, on, like, on the back, so when it is on our body it’s really hurting, it’s spiky.
Child Q: It’s really squee, um squeezy.
Abraham: So they actually like, they enjoy causing you pain?
Child P: Yes.
J-C: Look what what I just put…
Child P: _______, she like, she love doing pain to children.
J-C: See what she said is a big black wart on, eh, Miss _____, her privates’ lip, right?
Child P: Yeah.
J-C: Now. How will you see this, as a child?
Abraham: Maybe she showed it to her, I don’t know.
Child P: She danced naked, too.
Abraham: I was really happy…
J-C: Now the only way to see whether they’re telling the truth or they’re lying is to actually question it…
Abraham: Let’s have a look, have a look…
J-C: And then say, ‘How does this child know you’ve got that?’
Abraham: Absolutely.
‘Who has spots on their testes?’
Child P: And then there’s _____…
Abraham: That would be an (estimated?) confession.
J-C: That’s why for me, it is important that they tell the name of the person who has those specific markings.
Ella: Not only that, not only that. Quite a few other people have birthmarks on either….
Both children: Yes.
Ella: …on either, uh…
Both children: [talking over each other] ____, ____, Mum, she…
Child P: …with spots on her…
Abraham: _____’s mum. We made a point of asking…
Ella: …who is shaved, who has got, like a lot of hair on their privates…
Abraham: Who has spots on their, on their testes, who has spots on their testes?
Child P: Um…
Child Q: _____ from my class, he gots like a little…
Abraham: No, not _____, Child Q…
Ella: No, not ___, Mr _____, he got like spots on his private…and he’s look like it’s kind of permanent. It’s not like it comes and goes, that’s what they say.
‘They’re very aggressive to each other’
Ella: Now, just I wanted to come back to the question—I’m bombarding you with information—you ask me how comes I didn’t notice now. I knew something was wrong with children because the way they behave.
J-C: How?
Ella: Because they’re very aggressive to each other, they were aggressive to me…
J-C: You knew your children were aggressive to each other.
Ella: To each other. They were fighting all the time.
Child Q: I was pulling her hair.
Ella: And badly, badly, like once, I didn’t see that, but Child P took like a picture frame and throw onto Child Q’s head. To Child Q’s. She hurt him on his head.
Child Q: Yeah. She…that was the time…there was three times…I was really scared. But she was pretending to hurt me, she was pretending to hit me, but I was really scared, but then it actually happened. Because I got really scared.
Abraham: I see, yeah. What about in Glastonbury where you pulled her by the hair? And you slapped her?
Child Q: Yeah…
Abraham: And Sebastian and I witnessed it.
Child Q: Yeah…
Abraham: And we were pretty shocked.
Child Q: And you were really shocked.
Abraham: At the level of violence in you.
Child Q: Yeah, yeah, I was really violent that time. I used to do that before too, when Child P done…
Abraham: But you don’t do that any more, now do you, thankfully?
Child Q: Sometimes I make trouble, sometimes she makes trouble. Sometimes I snatch her things off her, then she fights to me, I fight back to her.
‘It doesn’t happen any more’
Abraham: It doesn’t happen any more.
Child Q: Nooo…
Abraham: Does it?
Child Q: Um. N-no, not really. I never pulled her hair in the holidays, never.
Abraham: Well done. I’m very happy to hear that.
Child Q: And since I was with you…like…no, since we were…when you started to live with us, Uncle Hemp, we still done it. But then after a while when we went to Morocco, we stopped to, is that right?
Abraham: I think you stopped doing it before we went on holiday.
Ella: It was before, before.
Child Q: You told me, warned me, you said it’s really bad.
Children misbehaved deliberately to upset Ella
Ella: But before that, just the whole time, they were just progressively getting worse and worse. Now. Misbehaving, in the whole kind of like, it was started from when they were like, really little, so for me it was just norm that they were like misbehaving, they were throwing tantrums all the time, they were fighting, fighting with adults. And we went even for several sessions to Tavistock Centre, they do child psychology. But they were really slow, and they were not really like that helpful, you know. Just listening, you know, uh, school, you know, so I was just constantly looking for solution, I went for parenting courses. So I thought something, I thought I was doing something wrong. And also they were misbehaving at all times, whatever I would say, they would say opposite. Apparently, what they told me that he was teaching them like to, um, undermine everything I’m saying.
Child Q: To be aggressive. And Child P is the boss of me. If I was—
Ella: And just…
Child Q: —bigger than her, I would be the boss of her.
Ella: Totally creating troubles. Constantly creating troubles. [Child Q continues to talk over her.] I didn’t really even have a moment, like to look at it, or to put all this kind of whatever I’ve seen, together. And I never been across children who, like…I…I dunno the subject. I never known children who’ve been abused, I know one adult who has been abused, he kind of made public, he’s kind of big figure, but then um…this is it. I’ve heard there are paedophile somewhere out there, but I have no idea, you know, where it came from or how it’s happening. Or maybe it’s happening very underground, very secretly. And, um, so I had no idea about this, you know. Like, if I knew something like that I probably would spot it right away.
J-C: So you felt this is like, child-like behaviour.
Ella: Yeah, it was like, um…
[they all talk over one another]
Ella: …children, children…
‘Touching each other’?
Child Q: You remember that time? Cos Mum, whenever she went into, whenever she meditated, me and Child Q straight away touched each other.
Ella: I mean I was constantly running around. I, uh, single Mum, I was looking, I was looking after them and making food, you know this …
Child Q: And Galya wasn’t clever, our touching, we hid away from her, in a park we, um, said we would go …
J-C: Who’s that?
Child Q: Galya. Galya, my nanny.
J-C: Oh, your nanny.
Ella: No, no, but she’s…
Child Q: Yes. She, um, she, she hardly spotted us touching. ‘Cause when we went to the park, um, um, we go, um “Moi je peu rouler?” … that means ‘Can we go and have a little walk? Uh, myself, and then, um, and also we sometimes run and we like find sticks, and that time, when we run and she’s at the back of us, um, we touch each other that time. So she hardly ever spot us.
Ella didn’t actually see anything
Ella: At some point, I did notice they were doing something. Um, once I caught them in the bathroom.
Child Q: You caught, you caught us touching, remember?
Ella: Once I came in the, like in the second bathroom in the old flat, and, um, I saw this, I didn’t SEE, but I thought when I came in they were doing something. Now what happened then, later, like a couple of days later, I look my phone, in my photographs, and Child Q was filming Child P without her underpants. Really short, like maybe under one minute. And so I had a word with them, looks like they became very skillful at hiding it from me. And, you know, like finding their ways to do that. Or like distracting me, saying that, you know, I’m hungry so I’ll prepare food, they go do it. And that was like kind of one of their tricks. And they developed like signs between them. OK, whenever I’m hungry, or I need to go to the toilet, let’s do that, let’s do that.
Abraham: Let’s go and touch each other. Let’s go and oh, they’d go like this, Mum’s talking, she’s talking, they wouldn’t say a word, she’d go like…
Ella: Behind my back.
Abraham: And they’d go and do sex, maybe go and do sex, or touch each other. Or she’d go like this…
Child Q: Mum, remember when you spot us …?
Abraham: Excuse me.
Child Q: Yes.
Abraham: Or she’d go like this … and then that’s another sign. What does that mean?
Child P: That means like, say that means: Mum’s not looking, she’s away, we can touch each other.
Abraham: And what is this one? What this one means? Stick out your bum?
Child P: That means: Go to the toilet.
Abraham: Stick out the bum twice?
Child Q: And then, twice…
Abraham: And what does this one mean?
Child Q: That one means, that one means: Be careful of Mum. That one means, that one means: Be careful of Mum. The sticking out the bum TWICE means like, like: Go to the toilet and do it. Or just once, that means … put, put, uh, um, because Papa, Papa learned…
‘Don’t keep talking about the other Papa’
Abraham: Don’t tell me what, tell him what once means: Put poo on our food?
Child P: Yes, because Papa, Papa…
Abraham: Don’t keep talking about the other Papa, right.
Child P: He was learning us.
Abraham & Ella: Teaching us.
Child P: He was teaching us.
Child Q: Signs.
Child P: To put, uh, poo on her food, and her toothbrush.
Poo on Abraham’s toothbrush
Abraham: Yeah. They took my toothbrush and they wiped it around the toilet. And I kept getting sick, I kept getting the runs and I couldn’t work out why. And then I worked it out. Then I worked it out. And then when I realized they were doing it, I didn’t make a big scene because we already had enough pressure by finding out this. So what I did I kept cool, and I moved my toothbrush from the sink where I normally kept it and I put it into my bag, to let them know I knew what you were doing, I’m not going to make a scene for Mama, do not do it any more. And guess what, they did. They continued to do it to my toothbrush. So I raised it as an issue, and I gave them licks for it. I gave them good licks for it.
A screaming baby = Satanic abuse?
Ella: Now the thing is now when I learned about it all, I started to look back and I’ve seen this and now, now I’ve seen what is going on because, for example, when Child P was like really tiny, maybe like under one years old, still in the pram, one time she was, she was like crying for, I don’t know, non-stop for maybe an hour. Like screaming, screaming, screaming … I mean she was fed, she was changed, she didn’t have anything bad to upset her stomach, but she was screaming and screaming and screaming and, um, I think this was maybe the first time he did some sexual thing to her. And, um…
Child P: And remember that time I was in this little baby bed and I was screaming there for hours, for like maybe one hour, and Marsha was there, Marsha still was with you, and then, uh, trying to calm me down, that’s what I remember.
20/20 hindsight?
Ella: So, and then, kind of like now I could, I could see what’s going on, what was going on…I could recognize it.
Abraham: In hindsight, in hindsight, now you know what’s been going on.
Ella: So I could kind of, in my memory, I could pick out this could mean, must be that, must be that. But, at the time, I had no idea. It’s like I was going to the six weeks, um…
Child P: Mum couldn’t even imagine that, Mum couldn’t even imagine that, of Papa doing sex to us and we were killing babies, she couldn’t even, she couldn’t even think of that.
Child Q: And we also, when me and Child P were kicking each others’ privates, I remember…
Ella: But, there, they, they…a couple of times, I think one of them…
Child Q: You remember in Sardinia she screamed, remember in Sardinia when…
Ella: …complained about it.
Child Q: Remember in Sardinia she would say ‘Idiot! Idiot! Child Q is an idiot!’ and then I would scream back at her, ‘Idiot!’ and then I asked her what does ‘idiot’ means, and you told me really, idiot means really really stupid, really stupid. And remember she was shouting, ‘Idiot! Idiot! Idiot!’
Ella: And I remember they were fighting a lot, and provoking me all the time, so it was just constant, constant stress.
Abraham: And making it difficult for you.
Ella: From the moment they woke up, to the school, and after school it was just total stress for me.
Abraham: You were really making it difficult for Mama, because who told you to?
Child P: Papa.
‘Mum was like a junkie!’
Child Q: And also Papa tells Child P to do difficult in the airport, remember? Um, when, the time when…
Child P: Remember when Crystal went to London? But we stay, and we were too late for the flight?
Abraham: Crystal is the dog, Crystal is the dog.
Ella: We mixed up with flights…
Child Q: And Child P was distracting you with sweeties. ‘Can I buy this?’
Abraham: And she made us late for the flight.
Child Q: And before, Child P, Child P, Mum, before that, when we was in [?], Mum was like a junkie! She buyed us Mentos, she done, she…
Ella: No! I mean…
Child P: She wasn’t a junkie, she didn’t buy us Mentos, but she bought us this chewing gum…this…
Ella: I just mean things for…
Abraham: (knowingly) Oh, yeah…
Child Q: And Mentos.
Abraham: Tell me about the Mentos, tell me about that.
Child Q: And also she buy us chewing gum.
Abraham suspected when he heard RD’s voice on Skype
J-C: Let’s…So you became aware now. You know.
Ella: Yeah.
J-C: You know about it. So what happened?
Ella: Yeah, so what happened…
J-C: Did you confront the Dad? Ask him about it?
Ella: No, no.
J-C: Why not?
Ella: We, uh…
Abraham: We didn’t know, Jean-Clement. She didn’t know then.
Ella: We only discovered two weeks ago, this whole thing.
Abraham: We only discovered this…
J-C: When you spoke to me?
Abraham: Jean-Clement, listen to me. We only discovered this…
Ella: Just now, just now…
Abraham: One moment—
Ella: …four weeks ago.
Abraham: I suspected this, listen I had my first suspicions about, almost two months ago, I think maybe a month, almost two months ago, when I first heard his voice on the, on the Skype.
Ella: On Skype, yeah.
Abraham: That was when I had my suspicions. I wasn’t one hundred per cent sure.
J-C: Oh, from the sound of his voice?
Abraham: Yes!
Ella: Uh-huh.
Abraham: And also because of the clues I’ve had from the children’s behaviour, from them touching the dog.
Child Q: Yeah, we were touching the dog’s privates.
Abraham: And certain other clues.
Child P: Papa also takes dogs, and he tells us to touch the privates.
‘They were touching each other on a regular basis’
Abraham: So, and certain other clues, I began to suspect heavily. And then when we got to Morocco and I realized that they were touching each other on a regular basis, I said to them: You guys are doing this regularly, how come no one’s caught you? Who is touching you? Who? I know someone else is touching you, you’ve learned this from an adult. Who is it, who is it? And then they…
J-C: That’s when they unfolded.
Abraham: Then they opened this up.
Ella: And then Child Q said it was their dad who did it.
J-C: That’s when it started.
Ella: Yeah. But I’ve knew about that touch each other. I spot them…that was in the bathroom I caught them about two, two and a half years ago, and since we moved…
Child P: My grandma was with us, though.
Ella: I’d never caught them doing it. But when I came in the room I can see by their behaviour something was going on. And um, maybe twice. And um, so what happened then? Yeah, then we just discovered.
J-C: Okay.
1:45:23
Child P: Remember we were behaving really strange, remember? I wasn’t listening to you, and then whenever you tell…
J-C: Do you feel better now, telling your mum and Uncle Aby?
Child P: Yes, we’re still scared of Papa.
J-C: Scared of Papa.
Child Q: Unless he comes to us.
Child P: But if he doesn’t…
Child Q: Unless we see him and if he…
Abraham: He will not come to you.
Both children: But if he…gets there…
Abraham: He will not come to you while there is a ugly crazy little black man in here.
Child Q: You’re not crazy, you’re nice.
Abraham: I am crazy…well, thank you.
Child Q: You’re nice, extra nice, extra kind…
‘In the beginning was these three guys’
J-C: What I’m going to do is, probably we should get the name of the people, you kind of describe them. The very important people, okay? So…yeah? Is that okay?
Ella: Yeah.
J-C: You ask them, and then I’ll write it down.
Ella: Just one thing kind of from what I’ve learned, I think how and when was happening, he was probably doing something to them, behind my back, and then he started to take them to his…friends.
J-C: To the cult.
Ella: No. No, no, I think it was, in the beginning was these three guys.
Abraham: G____…J_____…
Ella: His family, his mother, his sister, his brother…
Abraham: …were doing it…
Ella: Both married, both have two children, they do it to their children, they live nearby. I had no idea they were living nearby. I knew they all were in Sheffield. But I haven’t been communicating with him, so must have been happen now. This has been happening I think, um, during those year and a half contacts when they had. This kind of like how I…I may be wrong…
J-C: Supervised contact?
‘They were waking me up and scaring me and they would put monster costumes on’
Ella: No, they just, was every Saturday, and I think they were coming to the houses of those people. And that time I think they really terrorise children and hitting them hard. They were like waking them up, keep waking, you know like…
Child Q: No sleep, no, when I was sleeping they were waking me up. And scaring me. And they would put a monster costumes on…
Ella: And what they been doing to you?
Child Q: Okay, well, I remember…
Ella: Oh yeah, ____, _____, and ____?
Child Q: Okay well remember when we got really late? Once we got really…
Ella: It was only once he retained you for overnight.
Child Q: Once…no, three nights.
Ella: But what I am saying, he went to their house. What they been doing there?
Child P: They were doing sex to us…
Child Q: And scaring us.
Child P: Hitting us, injecting us…a lot of stuff. Lot.
J-C: Who is _____?
Child Q: He’s a Polish guy.
Ella: There is Polish guy…_____a.
J-C: _____m.
Ella:_____a, yes?
Abraham: Oh, you know this Polish name _____a? D’you know a Polish name _____a?
Ella: _____a, say _____a. Then um…
J-C: Who is G_____?
Ella: G_____ he’s German guy…
J-C: German.
Ella: German. And J_____ is?
Child P: German too.
Ella: Also German! We thought that he was English?
Abraham: No, he’s really German, she told us that.
Child Q: I think that he’s German, he talks with a German accent…
Ella: But his family was in-…had been involved at that time, around the same time.
J-C: So all these people, _____a, G_____, and J_____, they…
Child Q: Because the problem is that my father’s parents, like _____, his mum, done it to him when he was little.
Child Q: And his sister…
Ella: And the grandmother, from mother’s side. Mother’s mother also been doing it.
Child Q: We call her Great-nan. Great-nan.
Child P: So great grandma, our great-grandma’s daughter, Linda, she done it to Papa. And then Papa does it to me and Child Q. So it’s like a pattern, it’s like from the mother, been borned, _____, and after, _____ done it to her son, so that’s Papa, so now Papa has me and Child Q, and when we were going to be older, we will do it to our children, and it will carry on and carry on, carry on.
[Abraham and J-C murmur in background, inaudible]
Child Q: So our children will start doing it to their children and then their children who they have, they will start doing it to their…
‘We can just change the locks tomorrow’
Abraham: …go home sleep. [To Ella]: Jean-Clement offered, he kindly offered for the children to stay here…
Ella: Mmmhmm.
Abraham: He kindly offered for you to stay here with the children, I reassured him that we’re quite safe in the house for now, we’re going to change the locks tomorrow, and that if we were, we felt the need to take him up on his offer we would let him know immediately.
J-C: How far is home?
Abraham: Hampstead.
Ella: Looks like he’s got…
Abraham: I told him that he (RD) has keys, and we shall be changing the locks tomorrow night. But we don’t feel that he’s brave enough to come to the house while we’re there.
Ella: But if we lock from the inside, he will come…
Abraham: No problem, we’ll change the locks tomorrow. Forgot to ask (Andy?) about that today, but that’s the main thing.
Ella: Now the file is sent to you, it’s quite self-explanatory, although maybe some names you want to probably make connection. But their addresses, for those guys that I just mentioned…
Abraham: [to J-C] Is there anything I can do for you?
J-C: I cannot…can I drive you home?
Abraham: No, we’ve got the car, we’ve got the car. Did you explain…if you can tell us, Jean-Clement, is there anything we can do tomorrow during the day before we come and see you?
Abe tells J-C how to run the case
J-C: Ah, is probably what you can do that make it easy, you know the people?
Abraham: A list of all the people.
J-C: Yeah, and describe who they are.
Abraham: Describe what they look like, who they are.
J-C: Because they’re the people we need to go and speak to.
Abraham: Absolutely, Jean-Clement. As soon as you go to speak to one…
J-C: We’re not going to speak to dad first…
Abraham: As soon as you speak to one, they will warn him, then he will go and close up all his secret rooms. You need to go to the secret rooms and find the evidence—Jean-Clement. You need—
J-C: Okay, so in the secret room is the most important…
Abraham: The most important.
J-C: Then I need to know more about it now…
Abraham: We’re giving you everything now.
J-C: To be close, yeah?
Ella: Yeah. I mean, he’s the head of it.
J-C: If you come and see me tomorrow, I can take this one…[Child P interrupts]…sorry, miss—take this one, take a photocopy…
Ella: I can email it to you.
Abraham: And you can do a search.
J-C: And give it back to you.
Abraham: Can you get a search warrant?
J-C: If you want to…[to Abraham] No, not yet.
Ella: Well you can photograph…
Abraham: Well why not?
J-C: Because you need…
Abraham: Jean-Clement, time is of the essence. Look, I understand, I really…
J-C: Because this…if you can provide it, that’s fine. Name, date of birth, addresses…
Abraham: Not date of birth, but we can give you names, we can give you occupation, we can tell you their place of work, and we can…
J-C: If you have the addresses, it make it a lot easier, because you don’t want to go and get the wrong person.
Abraham: No, we can give you names and addresses.
Ella: No, no, we have a list…
Abraham: No, no, but Jean-Clement, he says we must have the right names and addresses, we don’t want to arrest the wrong people.
J-C: Because if…
Child P: We have the names, yes, yes.
J-C: Because if you do, then it doesn’t give your story credibility. And if it’s not credible, it doesn’t help you, it doesn’t build up your confidence, you see?
Abraham: Yeah. Jean-Clement, if we allow you…sorry to interrupt but, if we allow him to get a sniff, then he will close up his rooms.
J-C: That’s right. So we have to be quick. But…
Abraham: We must be quick.
Ella: Tell you why as well. Because one day when he apply for prohibit order, court order needs to submit children’s passports, and birth certificates, which I did. Now, the arrangement is, when I go out of the country for those holidays, I have to…I’m taking passports, I can take up to three days before travel, I have to submit it three days after travel.
J-C: You have to return them.
Ella: Yes. I already stretched this time, I told them I was supposed to be back last week, now I told them I’m ill, I couldn’t make a flight, we’re coming this week, so they will get suspicious pretty soon…
J-C: Okay.
Ella: …solicitors. Who are connected to him.
J-C: Okay. How long…
Abraham: Solicitors who are connected to him.
J-C: Now, have you got some photos.
Abraham: Of who?
J-C: Any of these people.
Abraham: I’ve got a few.
Ella: Yes, I’ve got some good photos.
J-C: If you can provide them that’s fine.
Ella: Yes, I’ve got a few.
Jean-Clement tells Abraham to get rid of evidence
J-C: Aby. You need to get rid of the videos on your phone. Because if you have any photos on your phone, mate, you need to give them to me, I’ll come burn them…
Abraham: Of who? Of who?
J-C: Just a moment. Like, videos of the young lady talking now.
Abraham: I must get rid of it.
J-C: Just…put it away.
Abraham: Why?
J-C: I’ll explain.
Abraham: I’m asking you.
J-C: If you have any photo and it does work, you can send them to me, I can burn them on CD and give it to you, if you have video, send them to me, I’ll burn them on DVD and give it to you. This is what happens. If you have this, for instance you showed me the…
Abraham: You were finding.
J-C: The…you gave me the phone with the video on it when she was talking. If you were to give that to the police, they would take your phone away. And you do not have access to your phone, until the investigation is finished. So if the investigation takes two years, your phone will be there for two years. If it takes five years, your phone will be there for five years.
Ella: So we can email to you…
J-C: So it’s important that you remove all this information from your devices. You can burn them, put them on the key—
Abraham: Thank you, Jean-Clement. Put them on a—
J-C: On a key.
Abraham: On a memory stick.
J-C: And then give it to the police.
Abraham: You mean give it to you.
J-C: Me, or give it to whoever want them…
Abraham: What police? You are the police!
J-C: Okay, give it to me. If you email, I have to take the whole, I say, ‘There you go’. So if email, I put them on CD anyway.
Ella: Okay, we’ll email from the phone and then delete it. And I’ll do the same thing.
J-C: No…so…
Abraham: He’s saying don’t email them, Ella. You don’t want us to email it…
J-C: No, if you email I can burn it. If you have ways of transferring, because I don’t…
Ella: Yeah, yeah, we can send it.
J-C: You can transfer it from your…
Ella: Mobile.
J-C: To your laptop, if you got one.
Abraham: Yeah, a Mac. Not messing about, you.
Ella: I can do that, I can, um…
J-C: You can transfer?
Abraham: Ella’s very good on that.
J-C: So you can transfer from your phone onto the CD.
[all four start speaking over one another here]
Ella: This, I can photocopy for you. All those…the plan.
How can RD have a secret room when he moves all the time?
J-C: Now, while Aby’s getting ready, what’s the main address we need to go to?
Ella: (very firmly) His address.
J-C: Where is that?
Ella: He’s moving around all the time. He’s moving…
Abraham: And you’ll find…
J-C: You’re talking about secret rooms? So that specific room must be at a specific address.
Ella: Yeah, yeah, we have address, we have…
J-C: So I remember how she described it, she knows exactly what it looked like.
Abraham: She knows exactly what it looked like.
J-C: Okay. If someone was to take her there and say ‘show me’, she will be able to say, ‘this is it’?
Ella: Yeah.
J-C: So I need the address for that place.
Ella and Abe have the address, but they don’t know it because it’s secret
Ella: We have…I’ll send it to you, in the, in the email. Yeah. His address, and here the plan of three floors. He’s got like four, five secret escapes from his house…
J-C: Okay. So that’s his address, until 2013? Or 2012?
Ella: No. His address he keeps secret. He—when the proceedings started again, uh…
J-C: So nobody really knows about it?
Ella: No.
J-C: So legally, nobody knows about it. That’s a private home.
Ella: That’s exactly right.
J-C: Now. And the most thing, for these children, took place in Christ Church Primary School.
Abraham: Yes, Christ Church school and church.
Ella: And…and, yeah.
Abraham: School and church. And McDonalds and [inaud.] and…
J-C: So Christ Church…
Ella: Christ Church School in Hampstead.
Abraham: School in Hampstead.
Ella: Primary school in Hampstead.
J-C: Is it Hampstead or Hampstead Heath?
Ella: Just Hampstead. And the…
J-C: NW…
Ella: Three.
J-C: And next one is the church. What is the church called?
Ella: Just next door to the school. It’s actually like…
J-C: What is it called? Church?
Ella: Er, Christ Church. And located on Christ Church Hill.
J-C: Next to the school.
[Sound of scraping food off plates]
Abraham: No backchat. And just do the job.
J-C: Yeah? And that’s still NW3.
Ella: NW3. Exactly.
J-C: Okay. And after that [inaudible]
What happens when a child flubs her lines?
Ella: Child P!
Child P: Yeah?
Ella: What his address, um, what’s his address?
Child P: Who, Papa’s?
Abraham: 15 Angel Road.
Child P: … 15, no, 16 Angel Road.
Abraham: 16? You told me it’s 15.
Child P: No, 16, 16.
Ella: They were changing this.
Abraham: (menacingly) You told me it was 15.
Child P: No, it’s 16.
Abraham: You told me—
Ella: The reason I’m asking because I’ve got different, even, um …
Abraham: 15. What’s his real address?
J-C: That Angel Road in Hampstead?
Ella: No, this is in Islington.
Abraham: (angrily) What’s his real address? What is it?
Child P: 15 Angel Road.
Abraham: You just told them 16. Jean-Clement.
J-C: Yes?
Abraham: Jean-Clement, this one has to be watched.
J-C: No, no …
Abraham: No, no, no, don’t tell me anything. His address is 15 Angel Road, and she just told you it was 16 Angel Place, Angel Road, and she just told you it was 16. Pay close attention to this one.
J-C: Does this one or two building?
Abraham: Jean-Clement … no, no, Jean-Clement, I lived with her, you’re not listening to me.
J-C: Okay.
Abraham: She lies. Instinctively. She lies.
J-C: So if you think she lies … why would you believe her story?
Abraham: Because I questioned her ten times, and then I will question him. And if what he says corresponds, … we question them separately …
J-C: Oh, right.
Abraham: … like the police do.
J-C: Okay.
Abraham: And anything that corresponds perfectly we, we, okay.
J-C: Okay, that’s good.
Abraham: The reason we know that the house, it doesn’t matter the number, we know the road and we know that it’s right on the corner, corner house. So if she tell us 15, 16, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter she tell us 15, 16, 17, we know it’s the corner house. Don’t we?
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: What’s the real address?
Child P: Angel, Angel Road.
Abraham: What is the number, darling?
Child P: It’s on the corner.
Abraham: What is the number? Don’t try to evade the question. What’s the number?
Child P: It’s number 15.
Abraham: Why did you tell us 16 just now? Go and wash your plate, please.
Ella: Now, but Child Q…
J-C: Aby, Aby…
‘Did she touch you?’
Abraham: (to Child Q) Did she touch you?
Child Q: No, she didn’t.
J-C: That’s probably because the information I was provided is meant to confusicate.
Abraham: What information was provided by who?
Ella: They confusing us.
Abraham: No, no, you are being naïve.
J-C: The way it was provided to them may have been confusing…
Abraham: Can you stop being naïve? And can you just listen to us, who have the experience of dealing with them? She purposely, and expertly …
Ella: Was misleading.
J-C: That’s what she says. That’s what she was trained to do.
Abraham: No. Yes, she was trained.
J-C: That’s what she said.
Ella: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
J-C: So you have to understand that. That’s what she was…
Abraham: No, we do understand that. But we’re letting you know.
J-C: It’s not purposely done. It’s done so that the story, when it goes out, nobody follows it. That how it’s made.
Ella: They’re mixing, they’re mixing some truthful facts with some lies. Mixing and mixing, mixing, so it took us four weeks to get to the…
Abraham: She actually attempts to mislead…
J-C: That’s right…
Abraham: She actually attempts. But because we know that when we are sometimes, this is another one of her, this is what she does … Ella and I, we will begin to discuss certain aspects of the situation …
J-C: Okay.
Abraham: … and by discussing it…
J-C: Yeah.
Abraham: …we brainstorm, and together we come up, or we work out, we work things out.
J-C: Okay.
Abraham: What she will do when we are talking, she will interrupt us …
J-C: Yeah.
Abraham: … and distract us with something. And send us, try to, attempt to send us in another complete … we say to her: Be quiet, don’t distract us any more. He does it…
Ella: And she would listen to our conversations.
Abraham: Oh, she eavesdrops on your conversations, and he does it as well.
Ella: And she would use the information she heard…
Abraham: And he does it.
Ella: … creating whatever, some kind of confusion between us.
Abraham: What you looking at him for? What you just, what was that look you just did to him? What was that look she just did to you?
Child Q: It’s a sign to me.
Abraham: What was the sign?
Child Q: The eye one.
Abraham: What does that mean?
Child Q: That means I’m ready to …
Abraham: You’re ready to touch? Excuse me!
J-C: Yeah.
Abraham: Pay close attention. Because you think you know, but you don’t. Once you are talking, and once we are distracted explaining to you, because you don’t, you don’t know them.
J-C: Hmmm…
Abraham: So once we are distracted. Umm, how can I say? Um, once we are distracted explaining to you the situation, the enormousness of the situation, and how expertly they are able to distract, once we are doing this, she knows and she made an eye sign to him that “I am ready to touch.” Because they regularly touch, because the father questions them as to whether or not they have touched each other.
Ella: And if they haven’t, he would hurt them.
Abraham: Punish them.
Child P: And sometime he accuses us.
Abraham: He accuses you of not doing it, even when you touch.
Child Q: We touch it. And then he says: No, you haven’t, stop lying.
Ella: How many times? They supposed to do it five times at least. Yeah, five times a day?
Child P: Every day. Every single day.
Abraham: Ahh … now you’re getting some idea of the case, Jean-Clement. Alright, what we’re up against.
Ella: And even they’re saying he did, he will still hurt, hurt them.
Child P: Anyway, he’ll hurt us anyway. Anyway.
Child Q: Anyway, he will slap us.
‘Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill!’
Abraham: Because he takes, he takes sadistic pleasure in hurting you.
Ella: Also he would scream into the, Child Q …
Abraham: He screams into his ear, he’s deaf in one ear. He screams into their ear. When are there – excuse me – when he is holding them to kill the baby with a knife, he’s screaming into their ear. What happens, who screams into your ear?
Child Q: Child P and Papa. Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill!
Abraham: And what about the rest of the people, what do they say?
Child Q: Kill! They say, they say …
Abraham: Tell me how they say it.
Child P & Child Q: They say: Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Like cheers.
Abraham: Say it. Say it how they say it.
Child P & Child Q: Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill!
Child P: Like that. But then after, when it’s my turn to kill the baby, the others and Child Q say Kill.
Abraham: And when it’s his turn to say it, you say it.
Child P: Yes.
Abraham: What’s the word that you say?
Child P: Kill.
Abraham: (softly) Say it more for me, I want to hear it.
Child P: Kill, kill, kill, kill.
Abraham: I like the sound of it. Can you say it together? Say it together? Let’s all say it together.
Abraham & Child P & Child Q: Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill!
Abraham: That’s what they say.
Child Q: Then really loudly, in my ear.
Abraham: You getting the picture now? You’re getting the picture.
Child Q: And they also, um, sometimes they say: Kill the baby! Kill the baby!
Ella: It’s incredible.
Abraham: What do they say?
Child Q: Kill the baby! Kill the baby! Kill the baby! Kill the baby!
Abraham: Let’s say it together, let’s say it together.
Abraham & Child P & Child Q: Kill the baby! Kill the baby! Kill the baby! Kill the baby!
Abraham: Thank-you.
Child Q: Like that.
Ella: He was doing to Child P’s ears, while she’s not hearing very well in the other ear.
Child Q: I’m deaf in this one, completely deaf.
Ella: The thing is …
Child P: Sometimes we do not listen to Mum. But usually is the, the reason is, because we can’t, we don’t listen to them is because we can’t hear them. That’s usually the point. But usually we sometimes do not listen to them. Usually.
Abraham: I love that honesty, I love that honesty, beautiful honesty that is.
Child P: I told you about that, kill the baby.
Abraham: No, it’s the first time you told me.
Ella: On Wednesdays they had a special day in school …
Abraham: First time you tell them you killed baby …
Child Q: And I told you about the showers of course.
Ella: … for example … up to sixty people could be abusing them in one day.
Abraham: Each.
Ella: They were putting broomsticks in their bottoms …
Abraham: [cuts her off] Mama, mama, mama, let’s get the children to bed, please. It’s quarter past one. Please, can we get the children to bed? We are all so tired. I am tired.
‘Can we go home now, please….Some of us haven’t slept for a month’
J-C: Can I do the reverse? Come to you, so that they will have time to sleep in?
Abraham: Yes. You should come to us.
J-C: Is that better?
Abraham: Yes, yes, you should come to us. Yes, please, Jean-Clement. “S’il vous plâit. S’il vous plâit.” Can we go now please?
Child Q: And, um, they, um…
Abraham: No. Can we go now, please? Thank-you. I’ve been patiently asking since quarter-to-one. Thank-you.
J-C: Want me to copy this one? I, uh, keep all you got, make copies.
Ella: I’ll, I’ll …
Abraham: Can we do this tomorrow? Can we finish? Can we terminate now? Can we go now, please? I’m tired. Thank-you. Thank-you. Some of us have been working on this for a month, full-time, some of us haven’t slept for a month. Let’s go.
Ella: Thank-you very much. Nice, nice to meet you. Thank-you very much for your time.
Abraham: I told you he’d, I told you he’d be perfect, perfect man for the job. Patient, patient. He’s kind, he’s thorough.
2:05:45
J-C: Yeah, I’ll come over after work, maybe.
Abraham: Yeah, come in your uniform, makes you look good. Scares all the neighbours.
J-C: No, don’t want to do that.
Abraham: [laugh/wheezes]
J-C: I went to the house of [inaud.], she said, ‘I don’t like you coming in your uniform!’
Abraham: I like when you come in your uniform.
J-C: Because sometime I work around there, so let’s come for tea.
Abraham: Yeah, come for tea.
J-C: I come, it’s not that bad.
Abraham: No, we don’t mind, we don’t mind. Everybody good?
Both children: Yes.
Abraham says his niece ‘likes to touch’
Child P: Yes, and [who’s that in the picture?]
Abraham: That’s Jean-Clement’s daughter! That’s my niece, _____. Yeah. She likes to touch as well.
J-C: No, no, no, no, no, she doesn’t. She doesn’t, Aby! She doesn’t, Aby! Do you see it?Abraham: She came to my house in Marrakech and she touched a boy.
J-C: Noooo.
Abraham: Oh, I’m a liar?
J-C: Well, how come you never say that?
Abraham: Well, what am I going to say?
J-C: You could…[inaud.]
[cross-talk and other noises]
J-C: Okay, you’re absurd…
Abraham: Jean-Clement: us men knew that better. And maybe I was thinking…
J-C: If it was just exploratory, that’s…
Abraham: It was not exploratory, she used to do it, she used to kill, she used to touch, she used to kill, she used to touch. She used to. I believe that she’s growing out of it slowly, she’s growing out of it, but…
J-C: Okay…
Abraham: But children who are abused, this is what they do, Jean-Clement. This is what they learn. They are being taught to kill. They don’t want to kill babies.
They eat baby for lunch, and their packed salads get sent home
J-C: That’s 400 babies!
Abraham: No, more than 400.
Child Q: No, more, more. In whole life of Papa…
Child P: He did it…
Child Q: He do it ten thousands!
Abraham: No, not 10,000.
Child Q: It seems like a lot, it seems a lot, it seems a lot.
J-C: One baby a night?
Child Q: No, no…
Child P: No, but we eat baby every day. We save baby.
Abraham: Did you hear that? ‘We eat baby every day’.
Child P: Cause they want us to eat some baby every day. That’s why we keep on bringing back food that Mum gives us. We have salad Mum gives us, food, and we just bring it…Abraham: Yes, we make them salad, we make them salad…
J-C: Is that like a packed lunch?
Abraham: Yes. But they have baby for packed lunch so they don’t eat our lunch. And the school is all involved.
J-C: Hang on, if there’s packed lunch, why do you eat the baby?
Abraham: Why do you eat the baby after Dad’s…
Child Q: They feed us school dinner with food in it.
Abraham: At lunch time they do sex to them. They feed them school dinners in the staff room, her boyfriend comes to the staff room, does sex with them…
Child Q: Yeah, B___, B___, B___…
Abraham: …does sex to them in the staff room, while the teachers are watching. When he does sex to you, what happens then?
J-C: Hold up a minute…
Child Q: …then go to Tesco shop, in Hampstead.
Abraham: He works in…he works in, no, in Highgate. He works in Tesco’s in Highgate, and he brings the sweets, they bribe the children with sweets and chocolate, and he’s one of the main…
J-C: Suppliers.
Abraham: Suppliers. Thank you very much. Can we go, Jean-Clement?
J-C: Eh, missus, she…
‘Show Jean-Clement some love’
Abraham: Yeah, she’ll be in there for a week. Like her five minutes of coming, you know one of those ones?…Jean-Clement, thank you very much. I’m glad we could come to you. Hey, what’d I tell you about Jean-Clement? Is he not beautiful? Give him a hug and tell him how much you love him. Come on, Jean-Clement. Jean-Clement, ‘cos he’s the man. Eh? Show him some love.
J-C: Thank you…[kissing sounds]
Abraham: Show him some big love, because I told you he was going to be the one to love you, didn’t I say he was going to be beautiful?
Children: Yes.
Abraham: Isn’t he lovely?
Children: Yes.
Abraham: Isn’t he just lovely, isn’t he?
Children: Yes.
[everyone talks at once]
Child Q: I thought he’ll be the same.
Abraham: I know you’d like him, I know you’d like him.
Child Q: I thought he will be strict.
Abraham: No. He’s not. When he’s strict, but watch him. You don’t think ‘ah, just because he’s being nice, take it in’, no. When he’s strict, coo, he makes me scared! When he’s…
Child Q: Do you know why I do this? Every time like this, because, um, they hurt me, so that’s why I do this…
Abraham: No one’s going to hurt you.
Child Q: I would have done this, every time.
Abraham: No, that’s it, no one’s going to hurt you…
Child Q: I always do like this, I’m sticking out my bum, because I keep on bending and then he tells me…
Abraham: Can we go, can we go, can we go now?
Child Q: I’m used to it…
[cross-talk]
Abraham: Jean-Clement, Jean-Clement, Jean-Clement, merci, milles mercis…
J-C: Et à toi.
Abraham: Bonne soirée, eh? Thank you so much.
J-C: So I’ll come and see you tomorrow night.
Abraham: What time you coming?
J-C: I’m coming…I have a meeting at six, so after that.
Abraham: Okay. We’ll see you then.
Ella: Thank you very much.
Abraham: Thanks very much.
J-C: Merci.
Child P: Mum, you got my slippers.
Child Q: No, she got…
[cross-talk, inaudible]
Abraham: Ella has everything, Ella has everything.
J-C: Thank you.
Ella: I will prepare the videos, and I’ll do the…
Child Q: And can we bring juice there?
J-C: And not keep them on the phone, okay?
Abraham: Okay, we’re going to take them off, and if we haven’t taken them off by tomorrow, we’ll take them off when you’re there.
Child Q: I will bring juice too.
Abraham: No, we’re going to bed now.
J-C: Good night guys…
Abraham: Will you say good-night to Jean-Clement?
Both children: Good night! Good night, Jean-Clement.
J-C: Good night!
Abraham: Yes you did, you did it all right…
J-C: Sleep well, Aby!…Bye-bye…yeah, okay!
Jean-Clement sees them out the door. Within 20 minutes, he can be heard calling the police, who went to Abraham and Ella’s house the following day. This audio recording was locked in a police storage unit in Chingford, and would not be heard until Mrs Justice Pauffley’s fact-finding hearing in March 2015. She remarked that, had the police heard it prior to their investigation, things might have taken quite a different turn, and Abraham and Ella would probably have been arrested for child abuse.
Photo by Terje Sollie on Pexels.com
HOAXTEAD RESEARCH 
Truly a great analysis you’ve done there, EC. Ready and waiting to be seen by anyone looking to understand the case. Applause for all your hard work transcribing, too.
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Thanks, Mark. I remember discussing parts of this with you ages ago…I’m just glad to have it all in one place as a resource. 🙂
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That was a monumental task, EC. Very well done!
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Thanks, JB. 🙂
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EC gets a Golden Hedgehog for this sterling piece of work 👍🥇🥂
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Ooh, a Golden Hedgehog? I shall treasure it always. 🙂
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