Where the kids are: The shocking reality of online chat rooms

In yesterday’s discussion about the extraordinary number of convicted paedophiles who seem to be friends with, or promoted by, people who purport to be “children’s rights activists” and “paedophile exposers”, one of our commenters described the shocking reality of the online chats where paedophiles prey on teens and pre-teens.

Posing as a young user, Satanic Views began to explore the chat rooms with the goal of developing an AI (artificial intelligence) tool which could help counter the grooming process. To develop such a tool, he says, it’s first necessary to understand the mind and actions of the paedophiles who frequent these chats.

While we know that SV’s motives are pure, and his goal is observation-only, we would like to caution readers that this is not an activity we would recommend for anybody. Participation in this sort of activity brings many risks, and should really only be attempted by police who are equipped to deal with such situations. 

Satan Hunters know f*ck all about paedophiles, how they operate and the impact they have on children. If the Satan Hunters were on the ball about the destruction paedophiles inflict upon children and society, they would not be so loving and supportive of those child abusers.

The challenge of society is that it is not public relations friendly to invest charity and tax payer money into researching and helping paedophiles overcome their mental condition. However, this is important to do this, because the problem and numbers are getting worse, with the police and other experts overrun.

For personal and business reasons I want to learn more about the paedophiles, their process of grooming in chat rooms, the impact they have on their victims, what the police and paedophile hunters are doing, and what the children feel, experience, think and act with regards to these paedophiles. I need this insight to be able speak about this, and to create some AI to counter the grooming process. I have never been on a chat room before, but for a few weeks I have been watching and interacting on a number of chat rooms. It’s been very educational, especially learning about how I am reacting and feeling about things.

There is a number of things that the experts have not picked up upon or are very wrong. In one chat room I am aware of a pattern never reported before that certain types of girl in the 12–15 age group will actively challenge paedophiles, but seem to end in a close emotional interaction with a few.

  • That too many teens are not checking who they are friending when it is obvious it is a paedophile.
  • That boys, and rumoured some girls, have adopted the process of paedophiles to predate on fellow children.
  • That the harassment of children and women in chat rooms is very intense, especially by predatory males, with probably ten attempts on a female for every one attempt on a boy.
  • That the paedophile hunters and police are insulting if they think that most teens write like them in chats with retarded text speak. The younger teens write very well.
  • And groomers don’t spend weeks and months grooming on the internet; most move towards the subject of sex very quickly.

The experts with an AI who think that when someone discloses something personal, it’s a red flag that they are a paedophile, clearly have no clue, since I have seen lots of situations of people disclosing things for attention seeking, and teens are quite open in what they share.

It is certain that in some of the chat rooms I am on there are dozens of police and paedophile hunters on trying to catch groomers. The police I believe just sit there waiting for people to contact them, whilst the hunters are more interactive. They mostly have a stock photo of a kid as their avatar, some retarded bio which makes them look like a kid speaking, and a name such as katie13.

I have interacted with a lot of these, and they are seriously hard going to get into conversation, you kind of know they are fake because the conversation dies: they are one word answers like yes, lol and cool; they totally ignore me after looking at my bio; the conversation dies since they are not talkative or participating much. These people could be a bit more interactive in my opinion, and stop treating teens like text retards.

For the purposes of the paedophiles I play an insight role as a young teen male, my avatar is really me, and my story is roughly as it was at that age. I am as authentic as possible, and I keep away from the subject of sex, but this becomes harder when a groomer moves in on me.

I am ambivalent about what I am seeing of the teens: they appear streetwise; they do talk about sex in main chat; they are open; impulsive; play dangerous roles such as play being a paedophile asking for nudes in order to expose one; they are cruel, for instance in one case suggesting a moderator got their role by sleeping with the admin.

I take people “as is” when I interact with them, so if they say they are 13, I treat them as such in all the interactions. If a person says they are self-harming, taking drugs, or feeling suicidal, I will say to them not to do that, and seek help. I will warn noobs to be careful, and I will intervene if I think someone is looking at risk. There is only so much I can say and do within my role.

Of the paedophiles: On a regular basis I was asked straight out if I had sisters, their ages, nothing about me. I would ask why, and they ignored my question demanding answers. Although I said I had sisters, which I do, I refused to give any further information.

In my interactions I am nice, polite and approachable, probably too trusting and open to conversation. Yesterday a random person offered me 500 ($£?) to go onto snapchat or omegle and do what they said. I asked what they wanted, and they were not sure, but wanted me in my underwear. Then they wanted me to send pictures or video of my penis. I refused.

I think I am being stalked by one person through a number of accounts, I am not sure. One individual based in Kent did not speak sexually to me, but it felt like grooming, in that they wanted to meet me and I show them my karate moves. Probably the same person wanted to wrestle with me to test the strength of my legs.

People who start a conversation with ASL I know to be adults and wanting sex, they get ignored, and I hate that word. One individual asked if I was gay, when I said I was straight, threatened to kill themselves, some sort of emotional blackmail going on to force me to become gay and in a relationship I think.

Some people open the conversation with “cutie” or “cute” which is a red flag of grooming. Some issue compliments to me, some are really nice and friendly, some want to help me with my homework or interests. Some are bullying, in effect ordering me to interact with them and share snapchat contact. Some coming in on the emotional level, I have to do a mental reset to get them out of my head.

Many want me to come off the chat room to interact instead by video, kik, instagram, e-mail, phone, omegle and other ways. As in real life I am uncomfortable about talking about my body or that of another’s body, so when people do talk to me sexually, my discomfort reaches a point really fast that I will say I don’t like talking about the stuff, or I move to bring the chat to a close, or I run, or I ignore. The groomer from Kent I could have ended in their life being ruined, but it is not in my nature to be the cause of the ruin of the lives of others unlike the hunters, I don’t like that on my mind.

I am saddened that the paedophiles are unable to see children as living human beings, but instead as sex objects, and that they think the innocence of a child, such as their openness and trust, is a mating signal that they want the paedophile to have sex with them.

I am confused why males think that putting their penis on display on their avatar is appealing to women and children to interact with them. I am distraught that one chat room is overrun with paedophiles, saying and doing many awful things, like a sweet shop for paedophiles, where the sweets are the children, a place where moderators are children who do not have necessary powers to do anything about it, and the children have been in effect been thrown to the wolves.

This is why an AI is needed for such sites.

In a follow-up comment, SV notes:

The situation is far worse than I have written for one particular site dedicated to kids. To give some examples, the minimum age is 13+ and I know there are 11 and 12 year-olds running around on the site, as I have spoken with them.

All accounts that are registered have an avatar, which everyone can see when they are active. When I check on the accounts of who is speaking with me or sends me a friend request, all their friends’ avatars can be seen, and these avatar images contain naked people, lots of erect penises, some people having sex, and some very disturbing illegal content of the top level.

The posts being made on the main chat which runs to about 50% of the posts include topics including: spanking; foot fetish; people with an obsession for diapers; invites to rape brothers and sisters; trading images via drop box and mega.

The admin who has the power to ban accounts has according to the moderators not been seen for months, and the three moderators are children, the admin was also a teen. There has been no efforts to appoint a new admin. The moderators don’t really know what to do, nor is people behind the site talking to them, they are unable to deal with the situation, nor do they have the powers to take action other than mute accounts for half an hour.

There is at least a dozen police from all over the world on that site at any time, and they should know what is going on, and they do nothing. Thousands of children use that site every week, and they see all this, and they are all being approached by the paedophiles.

If people want to see the site I have been talking about they can message me on Twitter, I will give you the address. You can join the chat room as a guest without an e-mail and see what I mean. The media, public and parents really don’t have a clue just how bad this can be on chat rooms, especially those with moderation problems.

We strongly agree with commenters YdychyncachuTracey and Lucca that this information most definitely belongs in the hands of the police. In particular, the chat room described above, and the “groomer from Kent” sound like crimes waiting to happen. CEOP ought to be informed of these situations.

Once again, we would caution readers that what SV has done should not be attempted by others. Should you find any evidence of online grooming or other forms of child exploitation, please contact CEOP via this link

Understanding paedophiles

More generally, we agree that hand in hand with a child/teen safeguarding approach, it’s important to understand the mind of the paedophile, in order to intervene as early as possible and prevent them from causing harm in the first place.

This is a massive task, and not something which can be achieved by one person, or even a small group of people. It requires not only a robust knowledge base, but the political and social will to focus on the “pre-offender” side of the problem with a multi-pronged approach.

This could involve such things as early intervention in the form of sexual education, access to confidential mental health services, support in the community to ensure that paedophiles remain non-offenders, and better education for police and the courts to enable them to intervene effectively when paedophiles do offend.

As a society, one of our first imperatives is to protect our children, the most vulnerable amongst us. If we’re to do that effectively, we need to understand the nature of this threat, and stop it before it starts.

man in black and white polo shirt beside writing board

Photo by Pixabay on Pexels.com

96 thoughts on “Where the kids are: The shocking reality of online chat rooms

  1. This should be taken very seriously and money made available by the government, urgently. I noticed today that IICSA is advertising for a social media expert, long overdue too. The authorities have not taken warnings about this kind of thing seriously enough and it is another reason for our campaigns that became stunted by the hoaxers……………… as they ran roughshod and turned the issue into a circus, online….. some of us have been unable to be as effective at stopping paedophiles than we might have.

    I agree that people shouldn’t attempt what SV has, without experience, know how and the right approach re reporting to CEOP or IWF. But I also think he has highlighted this area of concern in a meaningful and thoughtful way…… That IICSA is also going to be tackling the platforms is a good thing and needs urgent attention.

    I still think that one day, this blog will recieve an award.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. I don’t know about anyone else, I don’t feel happy even discussing this subject. Anything unlawful should be passed to CEOP as Tracey advised & be done with it.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Lucca, you are correct………….but, this is the attitude, hands off, that has left the way open for child abusers to operate with no real opposition………….CEOP etc clearly are not coping with the deluge, which could maybe have been stemmed had the hoaxers not wasted so much time and energy, resources and taken up so much space on social media to distract people.

      Liked by 2 people

      • I went to my sons school about 8 or 9 years ago for a meeting regarding Internet Safety, nothing at all was said about online grooming or warnings about chat rooms. When I tackled the staff, I was met with bluster and red faces and ignorance.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Sheva, I can assure you that schools are now very aware of online (and mobile phone) safety issues for children and have been for some years (it sounds like you may have gone in on the cusp of this starting). It’s covered in both the PSE and IT curricula, as well as school assemblies and other awareness sessions.

          It’s also a part of the annual child protection and safeguarding training which has been compulsory for teachers for about 5 years now.

          Of course there’s always room for improvement and we’re learning all the time, but I promise you that most teachers are working hard to protect children.

          In fact one of the biggest obstacles we face as regards online safety is the naïvety and/or laissez-faire attitude of many parents in allowing their children to join social media under the age of 13 (the obligatory age for joining most sites), despite our frequent requests for them not to do so. We know that some parents even let their kids use their ID to fake their age when joining Facebook etc.

          As well as grooming issues, this has also caused a massive problem socially, as provocation, bullying and bickering on social media are now one of the biggest causes of playground fights.

          Liked by 3 people

          • Thanks Sally. I know that there is now much more awareness and yes also how many parents are not doing their part, especially concerning is parents that let their children create fake profiles. In fact, it was the bullying aspect that the meeting, I mentioned, focussed on, it was going on that long ago and I knew some instances of the parent/fake ID, enablement thing, back then too.
            Years ago I was sharing posts from USA, mainly, that were giving clear advice like the ‘pants rule’, or swimwear rule and there were a few advocates here, also who’d written really clear books or made videos for schools, but I don’t think they were being taken up generally, enough until more recent years.
            There is still room for improvement and alot of it needs to be dealt with at source, imho. Something else some of us have tried to highlight and press for action on.
            As stigma breaks down, all of this can only get easier, I hope……..one of the main drives for alot of us speaking out, too.

            Liked by 1 person

        • I can only vouch for the school I was at but even before the compulsory training came in, there was a lot of awareness training in place and and a number of rules were brought in, e.g. we were banned from befriending not just pupils but ex-pupils on social media, taking photos and videos of kids using anything other than school equipment, and taking home confidential information on memory sticks etc.

          Not that we were doing any of those anyway but it was made official and became enshrined in school policy. I think it was about 2010.

          Liked by 2 people

          • Sally, yes, I remember those rules coming in. I think though that since there has been a change and that teachers are now allowed to friend pupils, or maybe I’m just remembering discussion that it might be allowed or even encouraged…………The reason being so that teachers could also engage and maybe notice any dangerous signs.

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      • I don’t think that Lucca is saying that the issue is “hands off” or taboo to discuss.

        What James has done is extremely unwise and his detailed report of what he discovered should not have been posted here but reported to the police.

        James’s actions have a lot of similarities with those of some paedophile hunters. Predators may be identified but if sensitive material is posted online then it could possibly risk police investigations and / or result in predators evading justice.

        Here is an example of how not to do it

        The “hunters” make all kinds of accusations against this couple calling them “nonces” and “paedos”, act in an aggressive manner, cause a huge drama in a busy public place and then post the video online. When the police eventually turn up they see what appears to be 2 vulnerable people being harassed by an angry mob and effectively rescue them. I don’t see what else they could have done under the circumstances.

        I can imagine that a good defence lawyer would use this video as evidence of entrapment and claim that, with the video going public it would deny the alleged perpetrators a fair trial.

        This is so depressing as, if the couple in the video have done what the “hunters” claim they have done, they are extremely dangerous and present a significant risk to children. I am especially interested in the area of couples and female offenders and this is an area that is not well understood or widely reported.

        One thing this site is usually very good at is demonstrating proper boundaries around sensitive issues. I think that the is not one of the blog’s best days.

        One thing I would be very interested to understand though is how AI could be used in the battle against online grooming and exploitation.

        I have spent years researching certain types of criminals and I would never dream of doing what James has done. I did once search adult porn sites for specific content linked to my research and by accident encountered horrifying images of child sexual abuse, I reported it immediately the Internet Watch Foundation and it put me off ever searching porn sites again. I felt extremely traumatised by the experience and had intrusive flashbacks of material I had seen for months afterwards.

        Also, a word to the wise. Many of the criminal networks and cults I research exploit their followers in the sex industry including in video chats and pornography websites. These networks own multiple porn websites.
        What many people do not understand is that if they visit a porn website, even one that does not claim to have illegal material in it and demonstrates compliance with various regulations re the age of “performers” etc. they may be compromising their online safety and privacy and leaving themselves vulnerable to sextortion.

        Malware can be installed on a computer relatively easily and anyone masturbating to porn could find themselves one day messaged with a link to a video of them masturbating, usually accompanied with threats, blackmail and extortion. The cult owned websites I know of have been the subject of complaints on consumer / scam alert websites for unauthorised payments. If you can imagine websites where vulnerable adults are pimped out and trafficked and where money is stolen from subscribers’ credit cards I think it is to be expected that these site will also be involved in data harvesting, the acquisition of compromat, sextortion and blackmail.

        Just another point, but as anyone who has studied psychology in any depth will understand, a person’s sexual preferences and choices, as demonstrated in their online porn consumption, can provide insights into that person’s unconscious motivations and desires. This is valuable information for criminals.

        Just as supermarkets use loyalty cards to develop profiles of consumers, websites collect data to be used to target people with advertisements for products and services. Do not imagine for one moment that porn websites do not do this also. Data harvesting is big business and porn in one way that extremely personal data can be harvested.

        I recently watched the excellent film Ex-Machina in which the issue of AI is central. A young man is recruited by an AI entrepreneur to test a humanoid robot that was created to resemble the young man’s porn consumption profile.

        While we have less to fear from humanoid robots in the immediate future posters and allies here should be wary of honey traps, male and female, who perfectly fit their physical, emotional and intellectual ideals. When people who seem to be “the one” appear from nowhere we should be alert.

        I think that the police are struggling against an ocean of predators, blackmailers and criminals who monetise the pain and misery of children and also of naive adults. One of the most horrifying aspects of this is the mental health problems and suicides that result from sextortion and online blackmail.

        We are facing an epidemic of suicides of young men in the UK and I strongly suspect that one of the reasons is online sextortion, bullying and blackmail.

        There is so much work to do in this respect and any creative thinking should be welcomed and encouraged but not if it involves

        James, if you think that AI can help the police then I would encourage you to write a proposal outlining your ideas. Share them here if you want to, just don’t even think about subjecting yourself to further illegal and traumatising material.

        Liked by 2 people

        • lost some text there

          “There is so much work to do in this respect and any creative thinking should be welcomed and encouraged but not if it involves”

          should read

          “There is so much work to do in this respect and any creative thinking should be welcomed and encouraged but not if it involves accessing illegal material”

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        • I very much take your point about whether this material belongs on this blog, SH. It was a judgement call, and I stand by my decision, as I think that while no one ought to subject themselves to what SV has, and the police must be notified of his findings, this is information which anyone in a child-safeguarding role needs to have. Most adults are unaware of what happens online until it’s too late, and I think it’s important to know what’s out there.

          However, I hear you about the importance of boundaries and staying on the right side of them. As you know, this isn’t the sort of thing we normally publish here, but it’s certainly opened up some very interesting conversation. 🙂

          I think you’ve raised a lot of really interesting material which needs addressing on multiple levels: people need to be aware that their online activities are not as private as they think, and need to understand that online, everything is monetised in some way or another. Even this blog, which charges nothing to use and yields nothing to those who contribute to it, makes ad money for the primary domain holder, WordPress.

          Going online in any way creates risk: as you say, malware, data harvesting (legal or illegal), predation, and the like are all out there. It’s a minefield, and we need to think—and teach our children to think—in terms of self-defence.

          Liked by 1 person

    • In my opinion things like this have to be discussed, unless people are aware of it, it will never be addressed. The CEOP and the legal authorities of many nations are aware of it, but there is inertia and lack or direction.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Your intentions ate good SV but I would urge you to work WITH the police ie be paid or work in official vetted volunteer capacity if you can develop AI. Much safer for you. You don’t want the nightmare of being accused of something.

        Liked by 3 people

      • I’m glad that you’ve posted this,EC……………. It has opened up a very informative discussion. I hope SV does keep himself safe and I think his idea has validity and is worth exploration…………All of the comments have been imo, informative and may also get others discussing it, with less discomfort, I hope.
        I’ve posted this before, but when I heard these videos from Jessica Eaton and realised that it needed to be addressed; the shocking videos that had been made & sold to most local authorities and have since been stopped……… I’ll share again here, it matters alot that this nearly happened and I really did suspect that abusers in business had made them and they would certainly be the kind of videos that someone like Belinda would use her influence to promote as would, say Baloney who did have the ear of MPs along with some other charlatans who’ve proven to be seriously dodgy:

        Liked by 2 people

  3. It’s out of control and it’s why I say our politicians are like deer caught in the headlights and are ignoring the reality of this New Age where unemployment will continue because of Robots (but will not consider job-sharing or social wages etc) and especially seem clueless how the Internet which has brought inestimable benefits but also ghastly unaccountable power for social media giants accompanied by rotten tax avoidance and of course, the targeting of children and adults on the net.

    Manchester families ‘targeted with hoax paedophilia claims’
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/08/manchester-families-targeted-with-hoax-paedophilia-accusations?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Liked by 2 people

    • I agree, I think the internet has acted as an amplifier for things that were already out there. The phone chats of the 1980s gave way to the listservs and message boards of the 90s, and now we have a massive array of social media platforms which are accessible to anybody. Internet-based crime is not going away, and police must learn to cope with it, the sooner the better.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Re GOS’s post: Sooner or later, all governments are going to have to bite the bullet and institute some form of ‘minimum social payment’ that everyone receives automatically- simply due to the increasing industrialisation and automation of our society
      There are less and less jobs for more and more people, and unless we are willing to let people starve on the streets (along with the associated high crime rates that would cause) it going to have to happen- there are only so many ‘service jobs’ and gimmicky offbeat things like making lamps out of bottles to sell online that can be done
      And like it or not, but the ones that have profited most from this industrialisation namely big business and wall st (often to an obscene amount) are going to have to be the ones to pay for it, we have the top 5% now have 50% of the worlds money, and its still increasing (I saw a while back that they expect the top 1% to have over 50% of the worlds wealth by 2050… seriously???)

      The internet is tricky as we all see things like facebook/ youtube etc where when it comes to regulating them, they do the ‘country dance’, try and sue them, they are a US Delaware based company, as regulations basically allow them to do anything there, go to tax them, suddenly they are an Irish company or based in the Bahamas and so can’t be taxed……
      Laws are another sore point with the net, whats legal in one country isn’t in another, and often directly contradict one another anyway

      Whats the answer?- don’t know, one idea might be have an international organisation (UN?) set up a set of regulations that all countries agree with (this obviously might take some give and take until they reach an agreement) and then control access to the net, any country breaching those regulations basically gets ‘cut off’ until they take steps to rectify it????

      Liked by 2 people

      • Steved, all valid points, you made there. Thankyou.
        I have often said that we need global solutions because of the global reach of groups, networks that are intent on causing harm or with crimininal intent.
        I am also supportive of the universal social income…………. for to remove such desperate need that many committ crime to assuage……….there will still be greedy people who will still want more……but for all the reasons you gave, I think it has to happen.

        Liked by 1 person

      • My thoughts are influenced by the experiences of a friend in Oz who sued Google for libel (took 8 years) won and is now suing them again as the libels keep appearing.
        But it was the actions of Google that were illuminating. 3 Google barristers against her one in the South Australian Supreme Court and a battery of lawyers using every delay trick in the book which fortunately did not go down well with the judge.

        But it was fascinating that in the last two hearings and the judgement that Twitter, Youtube and several social media outlets had their own lawyers in court to hear the judgement. So they definitely are taking it very seriously.

        Liked by 1 person

  4. In my profession we’re advised not to do anything that could potentially be misinterpreted, such as being alone with pupils after school, giving them lifts, befriending them on social media and so on. And I would think that engaging with kids in chat rooms would come under that category, even if one’s motives are completely honourable.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Even more so as many of the possible related charges are strict liability offences. The police and CPS don’t have to prove mens rea. All an honourable intention becomes is a plea for mitigation in sentencing.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Sally, part of the problem with all of those ‘solutions’ is that it has also made for negative impacts, is that for many it has been fear based, reaction to protect teachers and the reputation of the school, with also fear mongering in the press and all of those negatives are encouraged by the hoaxers….Within their comments or posts, many also mis describe sexual education and twist it into gender based, or normalisation, sexualisation of children, when in fact they also do that very thing, it is going on amongst hunter groups who read out chats on live broadcasts, which are open to under age children………….. Seedy fmotl groups like pendragons and other brands are amongst this and pushing these messages………… Brian Gerrish and Belinda have both pushed these ideas and hosted speakers on the subjects………… Jessica Easton is working very hard to combat this and I know others are too, hopefully the Inquiry will gain some education by them.
      Jessica also recieved the kind of disgusting and vile harrassment that we are familiar with and I mentioned this to her in a chat we had…………….. so I was spooked to see that David Scott had made sure her name was amongst my twitter feed screenshots when he smeared me on UK Column, re: Fresh Start Foundation or FSFJustice as their new tag is.

      Also, I’m pleased tht many teachers still do hug children and take better care of them for injuries…… I think it has helped that alot of primary schools are open plan now, but there were some instances that were galling, back some years with the knee jerk reactions, as survivors became more vocal and things had to be addressed.

      During the Nottingham Inquiry, ongoing, whilst the troofers and Tommy Robinson crew got aboard the Melanie Shaw clickbait…………. It did come up that a manager in a home, upon seeing a staff male member, with his arms around two girls on a sofa watching TV…… was warned not to compromise himself……many years later, the man was convicted of abusing a number of youngsters in care………… This was really well, presented by the QC for victims who spoke during the summing up, on the last day.

      Another thing the hoaxers are doing, discouraging any interest in it ! Trying to present their own inquiries, as discussed here before.

      Mocking and discouraging anyone posting about it, you know; the shill, government is all corrupt etc etc, mantras.

      Fortunately there will also be many who don’t take any notice of them, but again with that attitude it has been like shifting a boulder to make the police, investigation and others aware of the wide ranging damage that the leaders in the so called truth or alt media, conspiracy theory movement have caused, large scale and global…………….. this blog has been reaching some important people and I am sure is part of the reason for the investigation coming online and also the damage to Danny of Shatterboys which was also instigated by creepy David Scott, aided by Cat Selvester and Malcolm Konrad Ogilvy and other hoax promoters…………..just as is happening now to Flo and many of us, hence some may recall that I mentioned their impact of making me feel like a leper……..but that by overcoming that as best I could, then I have withstood their onslaughts of vile and managed to use myself as an example to share and show what they do to any of us, speaking out for real and effective change on this issue.
      Mickey Summers got a few mentions, including during John Manns speech, read out for him, described as a pain, but in a jokey way, there is maybe a need to ensure that Mickey understands the dangers we discuss here and also though I know he will have nothing to do with UK Column, after what they did to Danny, Danny has certainly been under pressure to stay in their fold…….they do this….. Anyway, I think the MPs contaminated, perhaps by the troofer bullshit, mindset may need a debriefing.

      https://www.iicsa.org.uk/investigations/sexual-abuse-of-children-in-the-care-of-nottingham-city-and-nottinghamshire-councils

      Like

      • “Sally, part of the problem with all of those ‘solutions’ is that it has also made for negative impacts, is that for many it has been fear based, reaction to protect teachers and the reputation of the school”

        Are you saying we care more about the reputation of the school than we do about children’s safety, or have I misunderstood?

        Like

        • Sally

          I cannot speak for Sheva and I have mixed feelings about Jessica Easton and her campaign – I think the issues she raises are something we should all be open to thinking and talking about.

          I do not know anyone here IRL and I know nothing about your school and would never claim that you or your school care more about reputation than children’s welfare and safety. I very much appreciate your posts and cannot think of anything you have posted that I do not agree with 100%

          However, in my experience it is sometimes true that interventions that are implemented to protect children and vulnerable adults can have the opposite effect and leave children and vulnerable adults at risk of harm.

          From my own personal experience I will share a situation that I have encountered many times and that has left me feeling powerless to protect the vulnerable. This is a composite example based upon many experiences.

          An apparently reputable / highly regarded charity is offering free yoga / meditation / mindfulness sessions to vulnerable adults, ostensibly to empower them to be more “resilient”. The yoga / meditation / mindfulness teacher has, on facebook, a list of friends that consists almost entirely of new age grifters, scammers, pimps and sex workers the latter category consisting mainly of vulnerable adults. For example Sacha Stone and his associates and Araya Soma have popped up on such lists.

          The only training in yoga / meditation / mindfulness the teacher has is from a sinister cult with a long history of involvement in serious organised crime including drug trafficking, labour offences, boiler rooms scams, firearms offences, the sexual abuse of cult followers (and in some instances of their children) by one or more gurus / swamis. There are “survivor” and “ex” cult member websites on the internet warning people about the cult. There are reports of the criminal activities of the cult in the MSM. In some cases there are state documents available regarding the criminality of the cult (as is the case with Osho / the Rajneeshee cult which can be found on the FBI website).

          I contact the director of charity and share my concerns. I am told that the yoga teacher had a CRB check and / or is a UKCP / BACP accredited counsellor / psychotherapist and am then “reassured” that everything is fine and there is nothing to worry about. I deliver a report to the charity director referencing all my concerns but am told that it is not possible to look at it for reasons of human rights and confidentiality of the teacher.

          Of course human rights and confidentiality are a good thing but they can be misused. CRB checks and enhanced disclosure checks are a good thing but sometimes, by some people they are used as a way to deflect criticisms and concerns about dubious new age snake oil sellers, quacks and cult recruiters that are providing services to vulnerable people.

          An accreditation with the UKCP or BACP might carry more weight than a qualification from the Michael Mouse School of NLP and Hypnotherapy but regular readers here will appreciate that all counselling and psychotherapy organisations in the UK harbour quacks and predators within their ranks.

          Of course any decent charity director would be concerned to receive reports that a teacher at their charity was connected to criminals. Such a person would want to know more and to exercise due diligence regarding the welfare of children and / or vulnerable adults in their care. Occasionally a director would be concerned and take some action but this is very much the exception rather than the rule.

          Just sharing some thoughts based on my own experiences

          Liked by 1 person

          • Thanks for that detailed response, SH. I don’t see much there that reflects what goes on in schools (though admittedly, mindfulness training has made some inroads) and I think you’re talking more broadly, if I’ve understood correctly. My comment was intended to refer specifically to initial disclosure procedures in place in schools, though I could possibly have made that clearer.

            I think some people have had bad experiences with their children’s schools and have developed negative views of teachers/schools in general as a result. I think that some also base their ideas about what goes on in schools on their own childhoods without realising how much has changed.

            By the way, I agree with most of what you post too and have great respect for your knowledge.

            Liked by 1 person

          • On a side note (and apologies for wandering off at a tangent), the truther community has been ruthlessly disingenuous when it comes to what we’re about and what they think/say goes on in schools.

            Take, for instance, Danielle la Verité’s frequent rants about “Common Purpose” (which is so not a thing in schools, despite what she says), or her false claims that children are routinely forced to wear signs round their necks when they go to the toilet during lesson time. And by her own admission she frequently turns up at her children’s school to shout abuse at the staff.

            Then there’s the likes of Cassie “Funneeee!” Crowhurst, who refer to their kids’ schools as “indoctrination centres” (yet seem happy for them to stay there). In fact the modern curriculum is strongly geared towards encouraging children to question the world around them.

            And then there’s a certain Inverness-based “lady” who seems happy to promote the notion that pretty much all teachers are paedophiles.

            Not to mention those who claim incorrectly that biometrics are part of some sinister plot for teachers to get hold of kids’ fingerprints for sinister purposes, even though teachers have no access to said fingerprints. In fact it’s an initiative designed to protect children from theft, extortion and bullying by negating the need for them to bring cash into school. Staff have their fingerprints scanned too.

            I could go on but you get the idea – schools/teachers are often seen as legitimate targets for the conspiranoids out there. In fact it’s the shocking way that Christ Church School and its staff were targeted by these maniacs that was my, ahem, primary reason for getting involved with Hoaxtead.

            Liked by 2 people

          • And no, Spellchecker, Inverness is a real place. I categorically did not mean ‘inverses’ but thanks for the suggestion.

            Liked by 1 person

          • @ Sally

            My family was extremely toxic and dysfunctional but I benefitted from the encouragement and support of teachers who literally saved my life.

            I care passionately about the importance of teachers and recently got into a heated argument with an acquaintance because I refused to join in with singing the Pink Floyd song Another Brick in the Wall as the lyrics are in conflict with my beliefs and experiences about education.

            If the troofers had their evil way children would be home schooled or end up in some of those awful Waldorf schools that are failing all over the place.

            I have concerns about Common Purpose in the same way that I have concerns about the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, the Tavistock Institute and various subsidiaries thereof. Just because clearly deluded troofers make outrageous claims about a particular organisation does not mean that their claims are true or false, they often obscure real conspiracies and troubling histories.

            Liked by 1 person

        • It does happen, throughout the system it seems: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/home-office-councils-insurance-firms-colluded-in-child-abuse-cover-up-inquiry-reveals/28/11/
          I’m sure that isn’t true of you, having read your comments here for so long, but it does happen, unfortunately there are false accusers too common as well. At least now the subject is being aired moreso, hopefully it can only improve for everyone, especially children……. Schools are not perfect, but they are probably better at reporting their own staff caught abusing than some.

          Like

    • There was an interesting discussion about that on Jeremy Vine a few days back, Fnord. There was an expert of some sort making a similar point, which if I’ve understood correctly is that talking to strangers online should be discouraged as vociferously as talking to strangers in public is.

      There was also one guy arguing that the stranger danger message is too strong and that it discourages kids from developing social skills, so it should be ok for children to talk to strangers as long as they don’t wander off with them.

      On a side note, one of them said he recalled the “Stranger Danger” initiative from when he was at school in the 70s, but I’d always thought that was an American thing (?). I only remember the Tufty and Charley stuff from when I was at primary school (in the late 70s):

      Liked by 2 people

      • BBC world service (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45813069) had an article and podcast last week about a replacement for “stranger danger” called “Clever never goes” [i.e. off with someone]. It’s currently being piloted in one county. The problem with “stranger danger” is that it warns children against the group least likely to abuse them – people they don’t know. Most criminally abductions are by people children know. Also some children were damaged by “stranger danger”, it made them afraid to go anywhere and dented their self-confidence.

        The message in CleverNG is that the risk isn’t talking to people in a public place (though it may call for heightened caution), it is leaving with them. It also portrays women as involved in inappropriate luring behaviour as well as men.

        Made sense to me. .

        Liked by 2 people

        • I saw that. It makes sense. It didn’t focus on complete strangers.but also acquaintances. I thought it was sensible.

          Liked by 1 person

  5. Not making light of this, but mostly hilarious account for me SV! 🙂
    Because I was a moderator for my area’s first Gay community chatroom on IRC, circa 1996-98. Not one of the founders, but recruited to be a mod by members of the University run GLBT youth group, who complained to me that the founding mods would never employ their “kick-ban” capability against people who were stalking them. They knew I’d be DELIGHTED to do that, and not hesitate to if that was warranted – heh-heh! The kids even gave me a crude packet-attack program, which they called “the nuke”, to knock down persistent & repeat stalkers.
    In any case, much of what you are describing is familiar to me from that experience. I won’t go into details here.

    Really my only other experience of chat rooms for youth or adults & youth together, came from naive attempts to get help with computer games on the company’s chat rooms supposedly dedicated to discussion about specific game titles. Which, I was surprised to find, were full of apparently horny American teens all shouting A-S-L to each other…and NO ONE would talk to me about the game I was having problems with! (Your interpretation that ASL questioners are adults where you are could be correct, I didn’t have reason to doubt these were teens however).

    When you say “an AI”, are you talking about something more sophisticated than a chatroom bot? I’m familiar with those from IRC, mostly used to keep the chatroom in “active” status, but also a portal thru which a mod could perform all their functions in that room without being “personally” logged into it. -?

    Liked by 3 people

    • Hi Justin

      I have admin and moderator experience on Left Hand Path forums, so I know the challenges as you do about being in this role.

      I am new to chatrooms so ASL was new to me, but it is not used by teens anymore. ASL has a reputation for being associated with those wanting to have sex, and teens associate it with predatory adults.

      The proposed AI is more sophisticated than a chat bot and should be able to run an entire site assisted with mods/admins.

      I would like to talk to you at some point about your experiences with chatrooms as both user and moderator as I think your input would be useful.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. The attitude discussed here by Jessica is rife, or was, we have broken that down alot too, it has shown itself to me during the inquiry. But yet again, I can point to the so called child protectors online promoting hoaxes and say that the comments aimed at me, display this very attitude as do the comments by many re victims repeated often, by Angela Power Disney, Belinda McKenzie et al.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I suspect that QEG Hopegirl had to be employed along with her flying monkees to take down my other channel, she particularly gloated that all my comments were gone….. yes and they were often very informative and alerted many to serious problems they were causing amongst the genuine people who do care and use social media for changes in better ways……………I think they showed their hand and we saw them collaborating more openly………………… needless to say, I have oft been treated as if I;m damaged, etc by the authorities and Heather certainly gloated that that was my reputation, perhaps because malicious letters have been sent about me, to authorities, there is some proof that this has happened, but recently that seems to have turned, somewhat and importantly, not least because Danny of Shatterboys and Dave Sharp involved with Scottish Inquiry have been taken more seriously and been able to convey information into the Inuiries staff…………..investigators etc….. along with the prosecutions, investigations of false accusers and corruption……….I believe we may see a sea change in attitudes, long overdue and hopefully with more aired publically, for the best forward solutions to the problems inflicted on our children by abusers.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I have found many of Jessica’s videos to be thought provoking but in this video she seems to not comprehend the issue of professional boundaries in relation to personal disclosure.

      Jessica, it is not all about you needing to be yourself or to disclose about what happened to you. It is about you being there for a client.

      It is not appropriate for a counsellor, psychologist, psychiatrist etc. to burden a client with inappropriate personal histories relating to trauma or anything else. The client comes first, it is their history and narrative that is the important thing.

      I am speaking from direct personal experience of harmful therapy where my therapist disclosed all kinds of personal things to me and I found it devastating. The disclosure of personal experiences by therapists to clients is a common feature of dysfunctional therapy that has lost its way and become abusive. It is a central element of the therapies offered at the Lantern Project. This kind of inappropriate disclosure is known to generate false memories.

      I am also extremely concerned by Jessica’s use of metaphors relating to dirt and cleanliness in her narrative.

      It is not just about trauma, practitioners should not talk to clients / patients about what they did in the holidays, their pets, their children, it is just a basic commonly understood foundation of counselling / psychotherapy.

      The other really important issue is about how the SRA / MPD / DID promoters combine dual roles of “survivors” and mental health professionals.

      If a friend asked me what to look for in order to avoid harmful, unethical therapists I would advise them to avoid any therapist who has a strong media presence like the plague.

      Sinason, Brett Kahr and their dodgy associates at the Bowlby Centre are all over the BBC and have been for years. Then you have people like Shoshana Garfield who claims that her mother allowed paedophiles to torture her as a child, leading to her developing multiple personalities by the age of 5
      https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Wdjt8PBptKEJ:https://www.jewishtelegraph.com/prof_196.html+&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

      Garfield is an associate of the notorious quack Phil Mollon and, like him, practises various quack “energy therapies” including EFT that claim to channel invisible energy around the body in order to release traumatic memories at a cellular level.

      Garfield also appeared on Channel 4’s controversial chow Child Genius and if anyone is interested to see the kind of parenting skills manifested by an energy psychotherapist you can still find the programmes on the Channel 4 website here.
      https://www.channel4.com/programmes/child-genius

      Some viewers were so horrified by her approach to parenting that they reported the Garfields to social services.
      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4803816/Parents-slam-Channel-4-s-controversial-quiz.html#

      So basically I am in strong disagreement with Jessica on this issue.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Just to clarify my disagreement

        It is possible for people with a history of trauma and abuse to become good professionals? Of course it is. Anyone undertaking any kind of MH professional training of any quality will be invited to reflect upon their persona experiences of trauma and other significant experiences as part of their professional development. Disclosing to colleagues is something that people should feel comfortable to do if they wish to do so and only if they wish to do so.

        Should mental health professionals create a public profile in which they become closely identified with being a “survivor”? Should such a person share personal experiences of trauma and abuse with vulnerable clients? I think that these are unwise strategies. That there are lots of really scary examples of this, Shoshana Garfield being just one.

        Liked by 2 people

      • I’ll try and come back to this, I know you are right about boundaries, but in many professions, abuse survivors are prevented from working with victims, that is a problem, unless you can point to some excellent help services for survivors of CSA. If they were available and easily accessed, then we wouldn’t be in such a mess. I’ve had disgusting treatment or non treatment and mental health services have no specific help for what is a very largely stigmatised, ignored group.
        I’ll listen again, but I hope you comment directly to Jessica, because then she can consider what you are saying and reply. I can’t reply on her behalf.

        Like

        • I have since revised my opinion on Jessica’s video. If Jessica is working as an educator and not seeing clients / patients then the issue is less relevant. I do feel concerned however for Jessica’s entitlement to privacy and the fact that she may be putting herself at risk of targeting by various astroturfers and appropriators and making their job easier by placing so much of her personal and private history available online. I have also checked out some of her videos and realised that Jessica has expressed concerns about some extremely dubious individuals about whom I also have very serious concerns.

          Liked by 1 person

  7. Re: Drifloud
    MP update to me. National Crime Agency referred MP to contact police. MP has written to Chief Inspector of local police area. The MP will update me when they get reply.

    Liked by 1 person

          • We thought so too at one point, but further information came to light which led us to understand that the person who had written a long, abusive letter to everybody on a mailing list of about 100 people was in fact Drifloud. Drifloud followed up with dozens more such letters, all in the same vein, all using the same mailing list.

            Both signed themselves “from a Conscious Living Being” and both used very similar turns of phrase, etc. After the initial letter signed “Alan Wrightson”, the letters began to be signed, “Drifloud”. Wrightson is a former computer engineer who lost his career after an apparent mental breakdown following the death of his mother. He wrote a number of long, rambly and basically unreadable books about Sufism, as he considered himself a Sufi master, for reasons known only to himself.

            Drifloud continues to post hideously defamatory, harassing, illegal material on Twitter, and SV has been publicly working to have his account removed for a while now. We did have it taken down in early 2016, but he protested vigorously to Jack Dorsey, and the account was reinstated. Since then, he has been pretty much untouchable. I’m hopeful that SV’s approach will be successful.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Thanks for the clarification EC

            The word “conscious” is definitely a “tic” in relation to the cultic criminal networks I have been researching. Ironic really as all the people using it seem to be brainwashed sheeple, glassy eyed and pointing out into real world screaming “wake up sheeple!”

            I refuse to shop in a health food shop near me simply because it advertises “conscious eating” in the window. Conscious eating my arse! They sell loads of confectionary disguised as health food, recommend eating vast quantities of coconut oil, which as any real scientist will advise, is just about the worst thing anyone can eat as it contains more saturated fat than butter.

            The Sufi connection is also very interesting. Universal Sufism, basically a syncretic mishmash of new age tantric sex cultic doctrines mixed with quack psychotherapy, LGATs and fake arsed shamanism is also very much on my radar and very connected to false memories of SRA and the abuse of vulnerable adults and children.

            Just an an example, an *interesting* and rather enigmatic person, who titles himself an “anarchist, poet, public intellectual, psychedelic explorer, artist, social critic, Sufi mystic” but who is also a proud paedophile and vocal supporter of NAMBLA who goes under the name of Peter Lamborn Wilson AKA Hakim Bey, although neither is his real name. He has some very interesting connections. He is very well connected to the Sufi Order International, a very concerning organisation that operates a highly dubious pseudo-mystical (and depressingly UKCP accredited) psychotherapy school from its UK headquarters.

            You can see videos of him all over youtube here is one

            Please note that there is an African American who goes by the name of Hakim Bey who delivers long rants about masons and conspiracy theories on youtube but this is not the same person. Hakim Bey is not an unusual name so there are likely other unrelated people on youtube and other platforms who are completely unconnected to NAMBLA or any other controversial / abusive group.

            re the white Hakim Bey, the NAMBLA advocate :

            http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GERu0WbVUJgJ:reddebreksbowl.blogspot.com/2013/02/hakim-bey-anarcho-paedophile.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lamborn_Wilson#Criticism_and_controversy

            https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7nBrAsRfLpUJ:https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Peter_Lamborn_Wilson+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

            https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cHrrd4QGAyYJ:https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-p-helms-leaving-out-the-ugly-part-on-hakim-bey+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

            https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GGmH7m6qKlQJ:https://libcom.org/library/paedophilia-and-american-anarchism-the-other-side-of-hakim-bey+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

            Like

          • I’m with you on the health food shop thing, SH. I see Holland & Barratt have a homeopathic range now, which makes me wince.

            Like

          • @ Smut Clyde
            The very same

            A depraved, unrepentant paedophile who has somehow managed to weasel his way into various countercultural networks and, shockingly, many seem blithely unaware of his proclivities. Possibly they just don’t care or even share his interests in young boys?

            He is an associate of the controversial “Pir” Zia Inayat-Khan, leader of the Sufi Order International

            The Sufi Order International is based in Beachamp Lodge, Maida Vale, London and is also the HQ for the controversial Centre for Counselling Psychotherapy and Education (CCPE), an *interesting* organisation that runs psychotherapy training classes and workshops on a diverse range of subjects including alchemy and the use of touch in psychotherapy.

            The director of the CCPE is a UKCP accredited psychotherapist and also the British representative for the Sufi Order International.
            https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fFHszswjcBUJ:https://dwij.org/pathfinders/steve_olweean/hamilton.html+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

            The CCPE and the SOI are worthy of further research. The SOI has a lineage stretching back to the introduction of tantric sex cults to the west via the conman Pierre Barnard and his highly dubious Tantrik Order of America

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bernard_(yogi)

            Like

          • correction

            the director and staff at the CCPE are UKCP accredited, the organisation is accredited wit the BACP and the UKCP, which is I believe, a very sad reflection on the current state of public protection, or lack thereof, in counselling and psychotherapy services.

            https://web.archive.org/web/20180905064113/http://ccpe.org.uk/?page_id=16

            The CCPE also has links to the new age grifter-fest “Alternatives” at St James’s Church Piccadilly via their Caravan drop-in “listening service”, based at the Shepherd’s Hut at St James’s, which can lead to people entering into counselling / therapy at the CCPE premises or with one of their therapists in private practice.

            For just a little taste of the smorgasbord of new age bullshit promoted by Alternatives check their twitter account
            https://twitter.com/alternativesorg?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

            They hosted Teal Swan earlier this month and I don’t think there is a tantric sex cult or new age grifter that they haven’t promoted.

            I think it would be extremely interesting to obtain information about how many vulnerable people have made official complaints to the UKCP and the BACP about the CCPE about financial, sexual and other abuses. Trouble is the complaints system is “confidential” so it’s all a big mystery.

            I have personally met people who have been abused in various ways by CCPE trained therapists and the opaque nature of the complaints systems at the UKCP and BACP needs to be changed as of yesterday.

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