Was Ray Savage ever a police officer?

A few days ago, our friends at McKenzies Devils put together a couple of very interesting videos, in which they raise a number of important questions about what we’ve been led to believe about an early Hoaxtead pusher, Ray Savage.

Mr Savage had been consigned to the dustbin of history, or so we thought; but in a recent email, noted dowsing and crystal-planting specialist Penny Pullen referred to him as a credible source.

“Oh, right!” we thought. “Whatever happened to him, anyway?”

You might recall that Mr Savage first turned up at the demonstrations at Christ Church Hampstead in late March 2015, where he famously declared that he had spent three hours sitting with Ella Draper, and that due to his “20 years of experience” as a Detective Sergeant with Sussex police, he could affirm with “110% confidence” that she was telling the truth.

He didn’t explain how he’d managed to spend three hours with a woman who wasn’t actually in the UK; and oddly, Ella has never mentioned this conversation. That’s a strange oversight, considering that if Mr Savage really had been a police officer, he could have been a valuable character witness for Ella.

But never mind. Probably just slipped her mind. She was very busy at the time—police to evade, Abe to placate, children to ignore, hoaxes to perpetrate. You know how it is.

Also, as commenter Spiny Norman said,  “What exactly was Ella supposedly telling the truth about? Pssst—Ray, mate—Ella wasn’t the victim. The children were. She never claimed to have witnessed the ritual abuse you say she was telling the truth about.”

So there’s that. But even stranger than the fact that Ella didn’t drag Mr Savage into her case is that following the church demonstrations, he just quietly slipped away, and has not been heard from since.

So what happened? Why did the Hoaxtead pushers not hang onto this superficially sane-sounding man as though he were the last life-boat on the Titanic? After all, it’s not as though this crew has a surplus of normal-looking, well-spoken people who don’t froth at the mouth. Mr Savage, it seems to us, ought to have been a critical asset. And yet he is not.

We know that the Hoaxtead mob aren’t usually terribly picky about who they’ll accept as a friend—a quick scan down their roster of supporters reveals a motley crew of scammers, fraud artists, wannabes, and the genuinely mentally ill, who egg one another on in promoting the hoax.

It’s interesting that Mr Savage, who started off as such a promising player, especially by comparison with some of the rank and file, seems to have completely dropped off the roster. It’s really impossible to say at this stage whether he jumped or was pushed.

What do we know?

Some of our commenters kicked the subject of Mr Savage’s bona fides around a couple of days ago. In addition to his dowsing activities and his involvement with MMS (the so-called medical miracle which consists of ingesting a chemical very similar to pure bleach as a cure-all), Mr Savage seems to have been involved in various fringe political movements.

It was suggested by several people that Mr Savage had never been a police officer at all. One commenter noted that Mr Savage had been quoted as a “former police officer” in a Daily Mail article, but another pointed out that this didn’t constitute verification: newspapers will generally take a minor interviewee at their word.

A couple of commenters suggested that Mr Savage might in fact be an actor, playing the role of ‘experienced ex-police officer’ for the cameras. Joe Kerr said, “What would be interesting is if a photo could be found with a ‘collar number’—the division number on the shoulder flash most Policemen wear. OR even one of him next to or in a Police car….. Ideally one we can see the number plate of”.

Issues of discrepancies in his uniform were discussed, along with the fact that none of us has ever been able to dig up any conclusive evidence in one direction or the other.

As we all know, not everything is available online, tempting though it might be to think so. Still, certain facts which Mr Savage has stated about himself just don’t add up.

Another imaginary police officer?

Neelu Berry likes to bang on about non-existent and lying police officers.Perhaps she might like to take a closer look at Mr Savage, who seems a bit fuzzy on the details of his law enforcement career:

Here are some interesting numbers to consider:

  • In Mr Savage’s 2014 interview with Sean Maguire, he states that he is 65 years old.
  • This puts his year of birth at 1949.
  • At the Hampstead church protest, he states that he had a 20-year career as a police officer.
  • But in the Maguire interview he states that he left the police force in 1983.
  • This means he must have joined up in 1963.
  • Mr Savage was 14 years old in 1963.

So…unless the age requirements for police officers were extremely relaxed in the early 1960s, or Mr Savage has the world’s worst memory about important dates such as “when I retired” and “how old I am”, we’re left to conclude that he is not quite what he seems.

We really feel we ought to be more surprised about this.

Ray Savage dowser

146 thoughts on “Was Ray Savage ever a police officer?

  1. Some conversation has taken place over the past day or two both with serving Police Officers and a former Special who are part of our group. None, unfortunately of Mr Savage’s vintage, but all of whom served under offers of that generation. – The general feeling is that the cut of his jib is ‘wrong’.

    The earliest he could have taken the Constable’s oath is 1967 at 18. Though he may have been a cadet earlier. – If he was a DS after sixteen years, it’s likely he was rather ‘fresh’ at that. – The general consensus among all the Police contingent here is that his statement with regard to the veracity of Draper’s ‘statement’ just isn’t something a Police Officer would say. Nor is demeanour and perspective. The ex-officer in our group points out that even 26+ years ago when they ‘handed their ticket in’ the Police was so different in operation and culture that experience of that vintage is virtually irrelevant today. That can only be amplified for someone 33 years out!

    It’s been suggested by more than one person that Savage comes to the frame via Patrick Cullinane and Pinewood. – That his ‘career in uniform’ was as a minor extra in a Police Drama. – These things should be seen as ‘lines of enquiry’ rather than firm claims at this stage.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. It’s all a bit odd.

    In his local paper he’s a former police investigator.

    http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/8480079.Knife_maniac_kills_horse_in_Alfriston/?action=complain&cid=8881831

    If it’s the same Ray Savage who got involved in 911 truth stuff, in Sussex, he’s a former counterterrorism officer.

    http://www1.ae911truth.org/faqs/711-historic-case-to-challenge-bbcs-911-coverage.html

    And, a bit of a stretch, perhaps here he is saying he ran the Heavy Mob, anti riot police? Or, is it someone else?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/fathers-day-2015-men-from-across-the-generations-open-up-about-masculinity-10326543.html

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Fascinating!
    I recall a contemporary news article, where a person named Ray Savage was testifying for the prosecution about an alleged CSA video which was “among the worst we’ve ever seen”, (I think alleging it to be genuine snuff), and described as a former images analyst for some UK police force.

    But, I’m too tired to search that out myself right now. Sorry.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Yes I saw that the other day and it’s quite near where I live.

      I was thinking of taking a drive, to do a bit of research as you do. Lol, not sure if it would be helpful though.

      So he’s coming up to 69 years of age in September, that’s if that is the truth…

      68 years of today, last March he was 67 years old.

      What age did he retire at?

      Liked by 2 people

  4. Perhaps there was a unique period where they were signing up 14 year old’s and putting them immediately in charge of investigations.

    As we know the famous ex-cop Mark Williams-Thomas says he had “30 years investigating child abuse” (at other time she has said “20” and “12” ) when he was 44 years old at the time. These articles are easily found on the net.

    However I’m prepared to give Williams-Thomas the benefit of the doubt as even though this was in a Daily Mirror article penned by him an editor or sub-editor could have fiddled with these figures- although he’s never bothered to correct it.

    The thing that did not ring true for me about Ray Savage is that he went the conspiracy route whereas as other ex-cops, usually with a book to sell are smart enough to know there are a host of tabloids willing to print any sensation claim.

    Many of us noted his bizarre claims that because he believed Ella was truthful this did nothing to prove anything and in fact if he was an ex-cop and that’s how he operated – accepting hearsay as evidence – thank God he is an ex-cop.

    I think this needs far more investigation. Something does not ring true about Savage. I know a retired Sussex Inspector seethed about Williams-Thomas seemingly laxity with the truth about his own career as being a slur on all ex-cops that have worked hard, done their job and retired. Serving and retired officers do not need fantasists or exaggerators who undermine the already shaky credibility of the police.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Just to prove I am not fudging facts here is the link to the article penned by Williams-Thomas where he states “nearly 30 years” (26? 27? 29?) which it appears to be written by him in the first person -this does not mean it was.

      I’m familiar enough with tabloids to know the article could have have been penned by a hack for him. But he’s never corrected it and his Wikipedia page says he was born in 1970. He also claims in The Mirror he uncovered the Savile matter but this is just not true.

      All the research was done by the BBC who famously abandoned the project and he simply seized the research and took it elsewhere. Who could blame him?
      The point is, ex-cops are no more or less truthful than anyone else.
      http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/child-prostitutes-forced-cash-in-fans-3660354

      Liked by 3 people

      • It’s interesting that Ray Savage’s fb page says he is separated and yet in the Balcombe video he mentions his wife.

        I suppose he could have separated since Balcombe.

        I have difficulty watching someone like him in a video, my bs detector reads “red”=BULLSHITTER immediately. I find it embarrassing, a bit like most of the “guests” on Jeremy Kyle show.

        I would like to know why Ray Savage turned up at the Hampstead Church on the day of the mass “protest” that Christine Ann Sands attended?

        Does he turn up to a lot of these “events” or is he a friend of Belinda’s or someone else?

        Strange that he appeared from “nowhere”.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Or…they could have paid Williams-Thomas to put his name on the byline, when the entire thing was written by one of their reporters (and perhaps WT wasn’t even in Brazil at the time).
        My attempts to trace the two narratives from the Batley case has made me aware that such sleazy practices continue in UK journalism.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Traffic cops know that the truth is malleable even with the most upright citizen, “I was within the speed limit” I was wearing my seatbelt” ” I wasn’t using my mobile phone” and so on.
      They even demand to see ID because they cannot rely on people telling the truth.
      We all tell Little white lies to some degree often for very good reasons- not to upset someone and so on.
      It’s a feature of the Hoaxer Mob that they cherry-pick bits of claims to re-enforce their per-conceived beliefs.

      Angie Power-Ranger does it all the time : finding lurid newspaper articles that she must think somehow re-enforce her claims in a totally unrelated matter while at the same time railing against the “establishment” which surely includes the half dozen billionaire newspaper barons who of course are all related to the Rothschilds.

      Liked by 2 people

  5. Just been looking at Lee Cant’s fb page.

    On 6th August he’s shared an article about the Hampstead Hoax.

    He also has several photos of Neelu taken on 23rd July.

    I think she has put him up to this and he is working on her behalf.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. To be fair, for some time after Savage’s “speech” at the church protest the hoaxers did keep citing him in their “evidence”.

    https://hoaxteadresearch.wordpress.com/2015/07/26/savage-cross-examined

    Charlotte, Kevin and Neelu were particularly keen and Charlotte even referred to his words as “conclusive proof”!

    Then he went on that radio show with Neelu and Kevin Weaver, where Ray enthusiastically revealed that his main method of criminal detection was water dowsing. I think it was downhill from there.

    [Scroll to 1:06:35]

    Liked by 1 person

  7. I believe PACE was introduced in 1984.

    Ray Savage says 1982 and he retired in 1983 from the Force.

    He states in 2014 he is 65, he pauses when he’s asked his age by Sean, he obviously is not being accurate.

    He is under 65 years of age at that point in 2014 I would say.

    He goes on about being more years out of the Police, than in it.

    Says he was in it for 20 years.

    Let’s say he entered at 18 years of age.

    20 years served=38 years of age.

    1983 being the year he retired from Police Force he says.

    In 2014 that’s 30 or 31 years ago, depending on the month of retiring and month of interview.

    On my calculations it all adds up okay.

    I doubt he was a Sergeant for 20 years if he’s implied that and as for the Intelligence bit, I’m not sure what that means.

    I don’t know why he is coy about his age but he looks the type that has gone prematurely grey.

    Probably all grey by 40 years of age, maybe something to do with people thinking he was older than he was.

    Some people are just not accurate with dates and round up and round down.

    Perhaps Matt Taylor from Brighton knows of him, he seems to know a bit about Sussex Police.

    Funny enough, I know a few men that work for Sussex Police. If I bump into them I’ll mention his name but they are probably too young, doubt they would have worked for Police in 1983, but possible.

    One is now an Inspector, so just maybe.

    Liked by 1 person

    • You think the figure add up? To me it means he joined the police at 13 years of age. Getting younger all the time.
      I reckon people are very accurate about dates they were hired & fired or retired.

      Yes ask Matt Taylor, he’s right on the ball. Hasn’t he been sectioned yet?

      Liked by 1 person

      • I’ll have to check my Maths then if it doesn’t add up.

        Maybe Sabine the Mathematician could do it for me.

        As far as I know Matt isn’t too keen on the Police yet I think he was in the Military Police.

        He might be biased against Ray Savage for all I know, might never have heard of him, who knows.

        It’s not all black or white, either or.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Maths problems? You could always ask Chris Spivey, who cleverly exposed the Woolwhich “fake attack” -at a public lecture, no less – by demonstrating that there are apparently 66 minutes between 1:26 and 2:20 (and definitely NOT 54 minutes), meaning that the CCTV footage was over an hour out, which is (according to Spivey) the cut-off point for being admissible in court.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Did he say why it is inadmissible? Or was it his bum talking, and thinking? I had a good look at CCTV standards and investigating electronically recorded material standards on the College of Policing site. I found nothing even hinting at that, zilch.

            Like

          • It would surprise me if there were such hard and fast rules about presenting CCTV evidence.I would have thought a defence may be able to question possible time anomolies should they exist but would be required to justify some substantial grounds as why any such anomolies in CCTV data may lead to such material being unadmissable.
            Then again the law can be a bit of an ass at times.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Yes – as I say, he specifically said that if a CCTV is over an hour out, it is inadmissable as evidence and that “the defence team would have had a field day” in this particular case if they’d been told.

            Mind you, this is the same guy who, according to a document he himself uploaded, kept custody of his grandson partly because he assured social workers that he never smokes in the house…seemingly unaware that there were several videos that he himself had uploaded, showing him…er…smoking in his house (including the gruesome one of him dancing around the room in his underpants).

            Liked by 1 person

          • Be fair, EC – I think he was just trying to fend off the rozzers using interpretive dance 😀

            By the way, while the wife’s voice at the start isn’t real, the police noises at the end are. They actually kicked down his door and arrested him (for downloading child porn, according to himself, yet he was allowed to keep his computer, so go figure).

            Liked by 1 person

  8. From Scarlet’s post:
    ———————————————————————————————————————————————
    This is the latest bizarre video from Ham Info [Charlotte Ward’s now defunct blog]:

    [Video now deleted]

    Here, we see that “retired Police sergeant” Ray Savage is once again being wheeled out as “proof” that the children were abused by baby-munching Satanists. (Before the Hampstead Research blog was hilariously banned, it had actually referred to Savage’s words as “conclusive proof”.)

    This is what Savage says:

    “As a Police officer of twenty years, I had the opportunity of actually sitting with the mother, in this case for for three hours. I can absolutely tell you, in my experience of interrogation over a twenty-year period as a former detective sergeant, she [Ella] was speaking a hundred and ten per cent truth. I know there’s been no investigation. There’s been no proper Police statement taken from this woman, because of the way she’s been harassed.”

    Oops! There are a number of snags here:

    – Abe and Ella have recorded pretty much every little conversation and interview they’ve had with anyone, from breakfast chinwags with Jean Clement to Grandma Draper yelling at the Police, and uploaded them all. Yet strangely, this alleged three-hour conversation – this “conclusive proof” – was never recorded. Seriously? Why not?

    – Despite the absence of a recording and despite Savage apparently being a former member of the very organisation that Hoaxteaders have consistently claimed cannot be trusted, they have accepted his word wholesale, without robust checks or cross-examination. There appears to be a default position here: when someone connected with the authorities says something the Hoaxteaders don’t like, s/he must be a member of the “satanic cult” that has infiltrated public bodies left, right and centre. However, when someone – a retired Police sergeant, for example – says something that supports their cause, that’s accepted as “conclusive proof” without question.

    – When did this alleged interview take place? As several members of our team have pointed out, Ella is on record as saying that she wasn’t giving interviews around this time. Moreover, by the time Savage decided to announce their wee chatette to the World, Ella had long fled the country.

    – OK, let’s suppose that this interview did take place. So what? What exactly is it “proof” of? What exactly was Ella supposedly not lying about? That she believed the children’s claims? Yeah? And…? She herself said she never witnessed any of the abuse, so it can’t be proof of that. Some clarification is needed here.

    – How exactly can Savage state categorically that Ella was telling the truth? As many (including the Police, the press and Mrs. Justice Pauffley) have said/implied, Ella is a very very good liar – and a liar who’s determined to cover for her child-abusing partner Abraham Christie.

    – Police statements were taken from Ella Draper. Here’s a detailed report of them (uploaded by Hoaxtead has-beens Sabine McNeill and Charlotte Ward) :

    http://www.hampsteadresearch.com/police-reports

    [Link now invalid]

    – A full investigation was carried out. The countless hours of illegally uploaded Police interview videos and the court hearing report appear to have passed Mr. Savage by. Strange, as the rest of the Hoaxtead Fruitcake Brigade haven’t stopped banging on about them for several months! Maybe Ray was too busy playing with his dowsing rods to notice.

    – So what of Ray Savage’s credibility? Is he a reliable witness in whom we can place our trust? Well, this clip should clear that up for you:

    At 1:06:35 in this interview, Savage proudly announces that his prime investigative method is “the ancient art of water dowsing” and offers us a summary of his “readings” as proof of a number of alleged child abusers’ guilt. Nuff said?

    Incidentally, several of the points/questions above were previously raised with a number of Hoaxteaders. Answers, however, came there none. As Hoaxtead has-been Charlotte “Jacqui Farmer” Ward would have said (and did say on many occasions):

    “Their silence has been deafening and is a sure sign of guilt.”

    For once, Charlie, we’re in agreement.

    ———————————————————————————————————————————————

    https://hoaxteadresearch.wordpress.com/2015/07/26/savage-cross-examined

    And as Gabriella said:

    https://hoaxteadresearch.wordpress.com/2016/08/11/penny-pullen-pull-the-other-one/#comment-37815

    Liked by 2 people

    • So now he was a “detective sergeant” from the age of 13 which is some feat. I don’t think he was ever a cop.
      I think the Hoaxer Mob have accepted his claims because he has the look of an ex-cop.

      I think he’s a professional fantasist.
      And here is a clue about scan artists:
      They often take the name, or if they have the same name of a credible person who is listed in a profession and is genuine. The internet has made this infinity easier.

      this reminds me of a now infamous case in Oz where a drug dealer was arrested in Italy with a suitcase of Ecstasy pills and got sent to an Italian prison for 6 years. I knew his mum who had to move to Italy to visit him all the time.

      But for years he got away with adopting the identity of a well know correspondent – with the same name – who worked in Italy. There seems to be a lot of “Ray Savages” around.
      I smell Scam Artist.

      Liked by 1 person

      • And an entire police force have actually said Ella Draper is a liar and she is a fugitive on the run from the law.

        None of this matters to the Hoax Mob. If an ex-Broadmoor inmate came up and said he was Jesus Christ and the Satanic abuse was real in Hampstead they would seize upon his claims and say- “see even Jesus believes the cult is real”.

        Come to think of it- I think we should tell anyone leaving Broadmoor to turn up to at Neelu’s, Sabine’s or McKenzie’s and make this claim and they may get a bed for a few nights. (don’t go to Power-Disney’s though as there is a physical price to be paid. Unless you are kinky and into that sort of stuff)

        Liked by 1 person

      • I suspect Savage may simply prove to be be a part time idiot and interfering,meddling bullshit merchant.Probably lived a fairly hum drum life in a hum drum marriage with hum drum kids in a hum drum house on the outskirts of a hum drum town etc
        He may have reached the heady heights of assistant secretary to the local neighbourhood watch scheme and perhaps even become chairman on the village fete organizing committee and proceeded to generally poked his nose into most things not for particularly altruistic reasons but because he gained a gloaty fix of self importance by being an almighty pillock.
        He may however have mellowed since taking early retirement and once a year sticks his oar into a random campaign for old times sake coming up with any old bollocks to stir up a bit of shit before returning off home to his hum drum garden where he is often observed sadly wandering around with some sticks pointing at bugger all.
        Since I have now put this theory out there on to the internet it of course must be hard fact.

        Liked by 1 person

    • And why is he telling that cop who is just there to keep the police, not investigate anything? If he was genuine he would speak to real detectives in a police station (as the cop nods sagely thinking ” another frigging crackpot”).

      More & more I am smelling hoax and another ratbag fantasy merchant.

      Liked by 1 person

  9. At the risk at going off at a tangent (hey, when did that ever stop me before?), there’s a brief cameo among Ray’s drooling admirers by gobby Liverpudlian Amanda Doyle, the one who makes crank calls to elderly vicars in the middle of the night, pissing herself laughing as she “hilariously” inquires after babymeat recipes.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. d.o.b possibly 1947

    joins police possibly 1963 aged 16

    leaves police 1983 = 20 years aged 36

    31 years later in 2014 claims he is 65 years

    More or less correct, nothing way off the mark.

    Like

    • But would the police have accepted 16-year-old recruits? If he had joined as a junior cadet or equivalent, would he really have included his years in that role as part of his police career?

      Like

      • Yes he would have been able to leave school at 14.

        And someone like Ray would embellish to make himself sound better than the truth.

        Like

        • All the Police sources at this end say you cannot and never have been able to take the oath until you are 18, with some forces it would normally have been 21! That places his earliest service at 1965. The Brighton riots were ’64! – So whatever way you turn this one around he’s lying.

          If he was at Brighton at all it was on the sidelines or more likely read about it in the paper!

          Police Cadets – Wikipedia offers as good a summary as any apparently.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_cadets_in_the_United_Kingdom

          You were a cadet ’till you were 19! And this was held up as the quickest/surest way of getting into the Police for a keen youngster. We remain as keen as ever to see that picture of him in uniform, it would speak volumes of his ‘service’.

          Liked by 3 people

          • Ok so he joined at 18 years old, September 1965 or later.

            20 years in the force = 38 years, 1985.

            So leaving in 1983 means the 20 years is really 18 years tops.

            2014 he’s 65 years of age. He was lying there, why lie about his age?

            August 2016 he’s 68 years, 69 years in September.

            His birth certificate/passport is what is needed and some kind of Police paperwork

            The issue though is whether he is credible and being ex-police does not equal credibility anymore than the next person.

            All these get rich quick schemes he has been involved in, is not a good look.

            I wonder if he was in the Police, why he left?

            And why does Neelu etc. rate him when she is saying all these Police men/women are Actors/fakes?

            Liked by 1 person

          • “The issue though is whether he is credible and being ex-police does not equal credibility anymore than the next person.”

            I think this is the most important bit, FA. He’s just not credible, given the things we’ve heard him espousing.

            Like

  11. Irrespective of Ray Savages working past (or lack of truth regarding it) He has failed to establish himself as a credible person in recent times.

    That failure is due to many of the things he has claimed recently being simply too far stretched to be within the realms of possibility.

    His methods of investigation are dubious and questionable and his claims fall a long way short of the test for admissable evidence. The criminal test of which is “beyond reasonable doubt”

    His “evidence” is speculative and based (in the majority) on hearsay. If he had been a Policeman he would be aware of that, especially if he had been a detective.

    Frankly, I see that he is little more than a boring old fart with some eccentric ideas and is not worthy of much time or consideration.

    He is typical of the standard of credibility of the people who have been pushing the hoax. Some who latched onto it are frankly raving bonkers, others have more devious motives – raising funds for themselves being a principle one

    Liked by 1 person

    • You’re right that his more recent history is far more important than his employment or lack thereof. Still, his alleged police career lent him a certain air of credibility and led to some people adopting belief in the hoax, who might otherwise have been more skeptical. Despite the fact that being a police officer is no guarantee of credibility, people still tend to accept that if an ex-officer says something is true, it’s true. That’s the only reason he’s of any importance in this thing.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Yep. Case in point – the first thing Paul Barbara said when asked for his views on the morning’s events: “I was very interested in what that ex-police officer had to say.” Savage may have been instrumental in swaying some of the waverers.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Savage ‘qualifies’ his ‘expert’ status on the basis of that alleged 20 year Police career and all the training and experience that implies. – You are correct JW in suggesting that a Police career is in any case no guarantee of honesty and integrity – or ability….. But that’s not the point here…….. The question is, what specialist training and experience has Ray Savage got? – None it would seem! At best he’s the worst kind of ‘bloater’. Therefore, how solid is the platform he has mounted?

        And even if he HAD walked the walk, of what relevance is his input 33 years after he allegedly left the force? Times have changed!

        For instance. An ex-traffic officer here, and by that I mean one who was at quite an early stage in their training when they left the force, tells me they could not tell you much of the fine detail of current traffic law. – They had for example no reason to memorise the different driving licensing categories when they changed. They’re not entirely sure what vehicles fall into which class any more (this came up when we wanted to move an old Fire Engine – could we just drive it on the licence for a 7-tonner?) They also note differences in driver technique and procedure which make what the police do today something of a “blank wall” to them. – In particular they struggle to understand attitudes to Road Policing and the absence of (police) cars on patrol. – They still know rather more than the average member of the public and perhaps have a little insight… They had the good sense for instance to actually enquire whether they could legally drive the Fire Engine… But there is a limit to the value of it; and one of the first things you note is that their opinions are expressed in a guarded fashion.

        I’m rambling here I know; my point being that Savage just does not present with that kind of bearing and sense. – His is a novelty act of faux-leadership. And as all the Police (ex and otherwise) here have pointed out. As a Police Officer, it’s never your job to judge innocent or guilt. You are there to objectively gather and present evidence.

        – Like Tony Farrell, Savage is lining up to be one of the great stars of the conspiracy circuit, and I believe there are one or two other similar characters waiting in the wings.

        Liked by 1 person

    • The miracle mineral solution stuff is just shocking really. He lives just outside a small village. I am surprised he got away with it. Actually, it is more than shocking. Evil.

      He seems to tailor his decription of his career for the audience. Counter terrorism and intelligence for the 911 troofers. Interrogation for the hoaxers.

      I am not sure if the Observer bit is him or another Ray Savage.

      He does seem to have deep roots, family links, to Alfriston, and the area.

      He is deeeep into all the conspiracy stuff. He must have crossed paths with Belinda. He crops up in connection with Charles Seven.

      As an aside, one of the promoters of miracle mineral solution, a father, lost their case in court, the parents can’t care for their child. Deborah Mahmoudieh is all over it without reading the judgement.

      It all sloshes round and round and round. It is all almost incestuous.

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  12. I have no doubt that Savage made his claims to try to establish credibility for himself.

    But -There is another school of thought – that is the Police do have a minority faction that can not be trusted. One only has to examine the antics of the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad.

    Savage (if he was ever a detective and/or policeman) would have been excellent material for that now disbanded squad.

    A short excerpt of their antics is copied below (Its one of many)

    “West Midlands Serious Crime Squad

    HC Deb 25 January 1989 vol 145 cc1155-60 1155
    §Motion made, and Question proposed,That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Alan Howarth.]

    12.27 am
    §Ms. Clare Short (Birmingham, Ladywood) I wish to raise the case of my constituent, Paul Dandy, and further serious allegations that have been put to me, as I have investigated his case, by a number of solicitors and retired policemen in Birmingham. The widespread allegation is that the West Midlands serious crime squad has for many years been engaged in serious and widespread malpractice and that that situation continues today.
    I have heard before of allegations of malpractice in the police force and did not think that I would be easily shocked, but the degree and breadth of the allegations of malpractice in the West Midlands serious crime squad which have come to me from solicitors in Birmingham has shocked me. I hope that the Minister will take the issue seriously tonight and not dismiss it.

    My constituent, Paul Dandy, was arrested in February 1987 and held as a category A prisoner at Winson Green prison for 10 months during which time he attempted to commit suicide. In November 1987, all charges against him were dropped because his solicitor had obtained forensic evidence which showed that his confession—the charge against him was based on his confession—had been forged by the police. The prosecution consulted its forensic expert, who confirmed the finding and the charge was dropped. The technique that proved this is new. The equipment used is called electrostatic detection apparatus. It can copy a page that has been laid below another one and bring out, through the imprint, a copy of what was written on the page above. The test showed that the crucial page containing Mr. Dandy’s admission had been rewritten and the confession inserted. It had not been there when the statement was taken.

    Not surprisingly, Mr. Dandy made a very serious complaint against the police. I notice that the Minister is not listening to this short debate about a very serious matter. It amounts to conspiracy to pervert the course of justice—forgery by the police in an attempt to frame an individual on a very serious charge.

    What happened then was very shocking. The case was investigated by the Birmingham police force. A person from outside the force was not appointed, which is supposed to be done in a serious case such as this. There was a long delay before any inquiries were made. The guy who was appointed to carry out the inquiry was on holiday at the time. After that long delay, the eventual finding was that the police concerned were not to be charged with a criminal offence, or even disciplined for having fabricated evidence. They were merely reprimanded for disposing of the original page of the statement.”

    Liked by 1 person

  13. The Independent published an article in 1999, that highlights the issue:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/west-midlands-serious-crime-squad-police-unit-to-blame-for-dozens-more-injustices-1120219.html

    West Midlands Serious Crime Squad: Police unit to blame for `dozens more injustices’
    Miscarriages of justice emerge 10 years after break-up of group that tortured suspects

    Ian Burrell – Monday 1 November 1999

    19990 comments

    POLICE FORCE calls for a full and independent inquiry as the West Midlands force prepares for revelations of at least seven new miscarriages of justice.

    Lawyers last night predicted that the notorious West Midlands Serious Crime Squad, which was disbanded more than a decade ago, could be responsible for dozens of wrongful convictions that have yet to come to light. So far 30 convictions have been quashed by the Court of Appeal because of evidence that the squad fabricated evidence, tortured suspects and wrote false confessions.

    The scale of the continuing scandal emerged as Keith Twitchell had his conviction for manslaughter and robbery overturned by the Court of Appeal last Tuesday

    Mr Twitchell remembers every detail of what was done to him by members of the West Midlands squad. “Somebody put this bag over my head and it was clamped tight around my mouth and eyes. I remember struggling and heaving but then I must have gone unconscious,” he said.

    Under those methods, described to the Court of Appeal as “a scenario of torture that beggars belief”, he signed a confession that led to him serving a 12-year jail sentence for manslaughter and robbery.

    Last week he became the latest victim of the squad to have his conviction overturned. Now 63, he savages the squad’s officers as “lazy, incompetent and careless”. He was by no means the first, or the last, victim of their actions.

    In the summer of 1980 a group of ruthless armed criminals, nicknamed the “Thursday Gang” was wreaking havoc throughout the West Midlands.

    The gang had just made its biggest hit – £280,000 from a post office van in Dudley, near Birmingham – and the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad was under pressure to get some results.

    The breakthrough appeared to come when one of the gang’s number, Keith Morgan, agreed to become a supergrass, followed by a second member of the outfit, Richard “Mad Mac” Mackay. Based on information provided by Morgan and Mackay the squad set up a joint operation with the West Mercia police, called Operation Cat, and in Easter 1982 they carried out a series of raids that led to 29 people being charged.

    Among those jailed were the brothers Donald and Ronald Brown, Patrick Gaughan and Michael Dunne.

    Despite the convictions being based almost entirely on the uncorroborated evidence of Morgan, a disputed confession by Gaughan and a semi- confession by Donald Brown, the prosecutions seemed to be another successful case for the squad.

    But Operation Cat started to unravel because of the conviction of another supposed member of the gang, Derek Treadaway. Treadaway’s conviction was later quashed after it was revealed he was forced to sign a confession after detectives tortured him by placing plastic bags over his head.

    During a successful civil action by Treadaway, who received pounds 70,000 in damages from the police and won an Appeal Court victory, the police were severely criticised, and the supergrass handlers and their informants were discredited.

    After Treadaway’s case the Criminal Cases Review Commission re-examined the cases of the Brown brothers, Dunne and Gaughan and referred them to the Court of Appeal. The Browns’ cases had previously been turned down by the Home Office. All four men refused to admit to the bank raids and served out their sentences. Dates for the appeal hearings have yet to be set.

    The origins of the West Midlands Police Serious Crime Squad can be traced back to February 1952 when the old City of Birmingham constabulary embarked on an experiment to tackle organised crime by assembling a group of “seasoned and experienced” officers driving “wireless cars”.

    The Birmingham “Special Crime Squad” proved so successful that it provided the inspiration for the now infamous West Midlands unit, which was founded in 1974.

    In 1985 a series of complaints prompted an investigation by the Metropolitan Police.

    The ensuing Hay report, which was never made public, criticised the squad’s interviewing techniques, failure to properly use pocket books and the inordinate amount of time that officers were allowed to remain with the elite unit.

    Although the report was seen by senior West Midlands officers, nothing appears to have been done to improve the practices of those serving in the squad. The complaints continued and a succession of the squad’s cases were thrown out of court amid allegations of fabricated confessions.

    Many of these were exposed because of the coincidental emergence of a vital new forensic technique, the Esda (Electrostatic Document Analysis) test which revealed that officers were making up statements.

    Up until 1986 members of the 25-strong squad would write out false confessions and force the suspects to sign them.

    On 14 August 1989, the force’s Chief Constable, Geoffrey Dear, disbanded the squad, and an investigation was set up by the independent Police Complaints Authority and conducted by West Yorkshire Police.

    The PCA investigation looked at 97 complaints against the squad made between January 1986 and August 1989. Ethnic minority complaints were disproportionately high, with 35 registered by African-Caribbeans and eight by Asians.

    Between March 1990 and October 1991 the inquiry passed a succession of files to the Crown Prosecution Service to consider criminal charges against some of the officers concerned. By then the Birmingham Six, convicted of the 1974 IRA pub bombings, had been freed by the Court of Appeal after an investigation in which the squad had played an important part had been shown to be flawed.

    But in May 1992, Dame Barbara Mills, Director of Public Prosecutions at the time, decided that there was “insufficient evidence to prosecute” a single officer from the squad.

    The PCA’s final report was published in January 1993.

    It revealed that officers in the squad were working “totally unrealistic” hours. Officers were abusing the overtime system, with some working 100 hours overtime a month, mostly for visits to licensed premises to “meet contacts”.

    The official report made no mention of the “plastic bagging” and other torture techniques referred to by the many victims of the squad whose convictions have since been quashed by the Court of Appeal.

    Nor did it highlight the repeated appearance in interview notes of key “confessional” phrases such as “That bastard’s really put me in it” and “You’re spot on”.

    At the end of its pounds 2m inquiry, the PCA recommended disciplinary charges against only seven officers. A further 10 officers would have faced charges but they had already retired, it was announced.

    In the event, just four of the squad’s officers – Detective Superintendent John Brown, Detective Constable Colin Abbotts, Detective Chief Inspector Bob Goodchild and Detective Constable Tony Adams – were punished for minor disciplinary offences.

    Two years ago the three remaining members of the Bridgewater Four, framed by the squad in 1978, were finally set free as the Court of Appeal decided that the crucial confession had been forged.

    Gareth Peirce, a lawyer who was involved in the campaign to free the Birmingham Six, said yesterday that there were still dozens of hidden miscarriages. She called for a fresh inquiry into the scale of the corruption. “I have no doubt there are dozens of people who have served time in jail but were innocent. The Serious Crime Squad were operating like the Wild West, they were out of control.”

    A PCA spokesman said: “We have retained all the files in the interest of justice. Everything was disclosed to the lawyers concerned. The Home Office who handled such appeals at the time were fully briefed of the technique that had been used by the squad.”

    Liked by 1 person

    • This is truly shocking stuff, JW. I vaguely remember hearing about bits of it at the time, but seeing it all laid out is just appalling. Poor policing practices like this simply play into the hands of the criminals—allowing them to get away because police were either shockingly corrupt, or blazingly incompetent, which leaves the CPS nothing to work with.

      Like

  14. Oh and Angie’s also kindly warned us that “the YouTube empire has been completely taken over by the cabal, to become the 3rd arm in the Axis of information control evil”. This is indisputably true because it says so on Hope Girl Blog (“Alternative News for Body-Mind-Spirit-Planet”).

    http://www.hopegirlblog.com/why-youtube-sucks

    Thank you for being so thorough, Angie. This scoop alone justifies your GoFundMe campaign.

    Liked by 2 people

    • 6:24 in the first video: “I do not follow man-made laws, I follow common laws.”

      Sooo, who made those “common laws” then, Neelu? Giraffes? Aliens? Lesser spotted woodpeckers? Please clarify.

      Liked by 2 people

    • 20:47 (first video) – I’m surprised I never thought of this before. Neelu et al frequently bang on about the UK having been made bankrupt in 1930, meaning it no longer has any authority over its people. Putting aside piffling details like the UK wan’t made bankrupt (and even if it had been, it doesn’t have any legal implications for its authority over its citizens), it’s just occurred to me that bankruptcy and its associated restrictions only apply for a set period until they expire, usually a few years. It’s now 2016, Neelu.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Yes she seems blissfully ignorant of the fact that the very reason for bankruptcy is to abolish your debts and to enable you to continue working or carrying on your trade and earning money.

        In fact this subject came up with my accountant the other day as he pointed out that all the meeting rooms in his suite of offices were named after Aussie PMs & Attorney Generals who had all been bankrupt at some stage in their lives.

        Neelu doesn’t seem to understand that the concept of bankruptcy has never been permanent in any country and it’s actually the opposite of what she thinks it is : a state affairs with an ending. In fact, she may not like this but that same accountant told me that the UK has reduced the time of bankruptcies to now 2 years & Oz law will shortly follow.

        But the most it’s been anywhere was 5 years and if only the UK had gone bankrupt all those decades ago- it would have been able to wipe it’s debts meaning taxes could be put to more useful matters than paying down past debts.

        But what in the hell are we talking about? We are acting like Neelu from Planet Biarmaland is rational.

        Liked by 1 person

  15. I always thought the notion of “common” meant something generally accepted by more than say 2 people ish.
    Perhaps Neelu`s multiphrenic inner dialogues with her multiple selves may have a bearing on all this.
    As ever no good can ever come of it.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. These troofers are getting quite scary.
    We now have one in Oz elected to the powerful Senate along with 3 other ratbag colleagues, who claims climate change is a NASA hoax perpetuated by ‘rich banking families’ (Rothschilds & Jews).
    People actually voted for this goat. What next? . Here he floors Brian Cox with his wacky views.
    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/malcolm-roberts-leaves-nasa-'flummoxed'-with-q&a-climate-claims-20160815-gqt9a4

    Liked by 1 person

  17. What I found weird was Abraham turning on Ray Savage. Accusing Ray of being an agent of the state sent to distract from the case by talking about the election. Why would he do that to Ray if Ray had taken a few hours to sit down with Ella, and was backing her on camera?

    Ray may feel confident in his ability to tell lies, but even the FBI recognise the difficulties:
    https://leb.fbi.gov/2014/june/the-truth-about-lying-what-investigators-need-to-know

    “In a study involving 509 people from a variety of career fields and agencies, only the U.S. Secret Service agents performed better than chance (50 percent).[6] A number of other studies have provided
    similar results.[7]”

    Liked by 2 people

    • Given his interest in pseudo science perhaps a spot of phrenology can be added full a more thorough assessment of Raymondo.
      Probably best not to offer feeling the bumps to Neelu however.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I got a job at age 18 managing a huge store after the owner sent me to a phrenologist. I kid you not. Apparently my bumps were superb. This man was a mega millionaire and everyone he did business with had to go through the same and after the phrenologist died he used a handwriting expert. From the lowliest job to an executive position, your handwriting was inspected.
        He was also a refugee from Auschwitz-not sure if that had messed with his head.

        Liked by 1 person

        • My grandmother sent my father to a phrenologist, and very excitedly wrote to my grandfather about it: apparently he had very intelligent bumps. Which goes to show that this generation is not the first to believe in wacky things.

          Like

    • A puja to gongs? Sounds dreadful. I also didn’t realise it was a thing to sleep through a religious ceremony, on purpose.

      He’s gone full new-age. And my sneer is the sneer of someone brought up by hippies who has known many new-age types who smoked much weed and talked rubbish about aliens and vibrations. Though, I did learn one useful thing, ONE, ONE, rinse the suds off your freshly washed dishes. Some of my childhood acquaintances are already dead. Yup. Deado of the drugs. I got out and the main thing that pulls me back is funerals. Dying in your twenties or thirties of a stupid overdose is no way to go.

      Liked by 1 person

      • You too also Tracey? There are a handful of us here who remember the sixties even though our parents don’t! Those of us who still have them that is. – Been to too many funerals. There are at least two of us here who lost their best mates from school before they were 30.

        Like

        • A little bit younger thank you, think hippy era trailing into the start of punk!

          Yes, smack and all that isn’t fun. I knew a bloke who overdosed after a long abstinence and wasn’t found for a couple of weeks, he was due to go on holiday, he’d liquified and his dogs had eaten him. The place still stank even after they ripped off the plaster back to the brick and replaced the floors including the joists. My mate took the dogs, who were traumatised but not dangerous. He wasn’t into heroin, then, He’s dead too this past year. I used to hang around with his sister’s son. She’s dead too.

          There are visceral experiences of death that cannot easily be described, nor bullshitted about by someone like Abraham Christie.

          Liked by 1 person

          • I was about starting primary school when the 60s ended. Many of the main casualties were just pot-heads, though I can still remember my gran going mental at my finding a stack of grey-strawboard a5 sheets in the house with little pink squares (about 1/4″) lined in yellow. Inside the square was a smiling mushroom. – Fortunately these were just the raw card; it hadn’t been dipped or anything. I had them in my schoolbag, thought they were something to do with lucky bags. – Never trust a hippie! As a passing butter salesman once said.

            Liked by 1 person

    • Cryptic but Rupert seems to be holding out money is greater than fun with some ill formed adolescent subjective logic.
      Sean rightly picks up on the shallowness of the comment effectively telling him to stop being a hedonistic twat for a while and maybe consideration for others trumps(sorry EC) the pursuit of both cash or masturbatory thrills.
      Just my take but probably the consequence of some inbred skunk headfuck.

      Liked by 1 person

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